Ep 19: Permission to feel with Nicole Dean

Show notes.

Nicole Dean is one inspiring human. 

As much for her honesty and courage as for her actions and achievements. 

In this conversation, we chat about burnout, identity shifts and what it took to rebuild after hitting rock bottom. We talk about how movement played a huge role in her transformation, the struggle to be kinder to herself and how nature became a big part of her healing.

Nic also opens up about the life-changing grief of losing her unborn baby and what it looked like to rediscover joy again. 

This is a raw, honest convo about growth, resilience and the beauty of getting to know yourself.

Keywords

emotional check-in, physical transformation, burnout, identity, self-discovery, self-compassion, healing, nature, motherhood, CrossFit, self-validation, grief, family dynamics, emotions, vulnerability, personal growth, relationships, motherhood, loss, healing

Transcript

Rick And Nik (00:00.11)

Nicole Dean, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Thanks for having me. This is pretty fun, isn't it? Well, it's different. Not your version of fun. Well, it could be. I'll you know in an hour. I was exactly the same. So let's start with a check in and see what exactly is going on with you right now, physically, mentally, emotionally. What's happening there? physically,

Body feels pretty good. Body seems to be doing what it's supposed to be doing. Mentally and emotionally, they seem to be quite tied with hormones at the moment. that first sort of phase after my period, I seem to get quite a little bit more heightened, I guess. And that's been a pattern that I've noticed. So...

Yeah, my brain seems to be going at 100 miles an hour. I don't sleep as good. And yeah, that little sensation in your gut is probably.

there more than not. Yeah. So, and it could be because I'm here as well too, but yeah, no, it's definitely a pattern just that week after. The volumes turned up a little bit. Yeah. Right. Yeah. If you were to take a guess, an educated guess, because you are you, what emotions are kicking around at the moment? What's, what's floating around in there?

Rick And Nik (01:40.973)

I'm definitely, I could definitely sort of, I'm a lot more emotional, I feel. You know, like even last night I was watching this series I'm into when there was actually a stillbirth in there. And that really, it's not that it, yes, it takes me back to Lux, but it was, I just knew exactly.

how they were feeling in that moment, what was to come, all the emotions. And my body just takes over. And I guess now I'm able to release it a bit better. I noticed that Jada came out from a room and noticed that I was, noticed what was on, checked in with me, came down, gave me a hug. And I tried to not cry and not, you know, just be a little bit stronger. And then I thought, that's not.

That's not right. It's sad. all, we're all sad. She sees that I'm sad and that's fine. So I just continue to cry. um, is that a new thing? Uh, yeah, yeah. And still something I'm working on for sure. Um, allowing emotions to come through and, um, when they do come through, you know, and it's probably more of that feminine side rather than always having to be in that masculine energy that I spent.

probably the first two to three decades of my life in more. Yeah. Cool. We do have tissues under the table. I may need them. Yeah. Yeah. Full permission to cry. I've cried in here a few times. Cool. Thanks. My check-in. Physically, I feel activated. My body feels like it's being used.

which is new because pre house move, I was really static and in like not committing time to moving and just the physical act of moving house last week and even yesterday testing out the gym under the house and jumping in the river and just doing some sort of stuff. My body's happy that there's there's some chop wood carry water kind of movement happening. Just getting stuff done, your lawns and. I completely understand. Yeah. I'm just.

Rick And Nik (04:05.518)

in the last house, was a rental and there wasn't a lot of, there was no yard work and anything like that. So it just feels really good to move the body, but also see a result after it. know, boxes are away and lawns are mowed and you know, it's like, so yeah, there's lots of little bits in the physical part today for me.

Rick And Nik (04:26.474)

Mentally, I'm actually feeling a bit rushed. dropped off in to tennis this morning before we started and got a bit caught in traffic. And I like to kind of be organized for these and like ease in rather than, but we didn't get that opportunity today. yeah, feeling a little bit rushed in my chest, like a bit, have I got all the stuff done kind of feeling. And emotionally.

Rick And Nik (04:56.323)

I don't know the word for it. I just feel really calm emotionally. Like the ocean is still. Yeah. That's nice feeling. Yeah. So that's.

Rick And Nik (05:10.626)

that there's that and then there's just like little boy excitement about having a having this new house. Yeah. The energy and the light and all the stuff that comes with this house. Yeah. So there's like little boy excitement and kind of calmness that emotionally at the same time. that's a strange combo that I didn't know was happening and yeah. Yeah. A great combo though. Yeah. Yeah. You know, such an exciting time.

and future. Yeah. Yeah. So first podcast in the new house. So it feels good. Yeah. Yeah. It's beautiful. how do we meet? How do we know each other? How far back do we go?

Well, where do we meet? Well, we met at the box. I'm sure we met at CrossFit and Urban. And that would have been 10 years ago. Yep. Around that when I was currently working at Redbox, currently training there. Which is another gym in town. It is, that's right. At the time, my rivals. Yeah. And I loved I...

That was definitely a place where I fell in love with CrossFit. They just started when I...

went to the gym. I'd always gone up to tweed. I wanted to get out of more bar. And then when Jada went to start a school, I needed somewhere in town, just to fit in more with our routine. And, they were just building a small box, as I started. And then sort of, that's where I began my journey with it, fell in love with it and became a coach. Crossfit that is the crossfit that is. Yeah. And then,

Rick And Nik (07:06.956)

I just felt that things weren't being...

met for my needs and I wanted to look elsewhere and that's when I came over to you guys in the industrial estate. Which was amazing. I mean I love the box atmosphere, I love the camaraderie. Anywhere you go I think in a crossfit community anyway you'll find people that just have the same likes and you know. What think about the coaches at our gym?

Rick And Nik (07:44.646)

I thought they were great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm still stuck with one of them. So, you know, that's, that's a good thing. I think you're one of the success stories of that gym. So for context, are you guys married now? Yeah, we are. and Chris, who was the first employee of CrossFit Mobile, my second in charge basically, are now married and have been together for how long?

Eight years. Yeah. So, and that was interesting because yeah, that's a completely different story in itself. Swing background. Yeah. Yeah. Well, what, so about 10 years ago, what was happening in your life 10 years ago? What were you, what was happening externally and what was happening internally? there was always a lot happening externally. I

had been divorced and sort of navigating through pathways with Jada's father and what works and you know, what doesn't and then trying to maintain some kind of normality for myself. Movement had always been something for me and that's why I loved it and got back into the gym environment after I had her. But yeah, just something wasn't sitting right with me.

There was a lot of sort of toing and froing in my own head as to, it just felt like I needed something and I wasn't quite sure what that was and it wasn't being met where I was. There was a lot of stuff going on inside the gym which wasn't working for me and then I felt like I wanted to take my training to a different level. I wanted to sort of.

step it up a little bit and I'd been on the other coaches as in they designed programs and I was working with that but then it wasn't deemed responsible I guess on my part. They wanted me to be doing what everyone else was doing you know and I could understand that for sure. I totally do but I just felt like I needed a different environment and hence why I came.

Rick And Nik (10:08.27)

So on a physical level, what would you say that your status was? Would you say that you were like on the edge of burnout or past it or where were you physically? Yeah, I probably wouldn't have known it, but I was definitely on the edge of burnout. Yeah. I'd had that prior as well too. I had put myself in hospital with rhabdomyelitis, which I had no idea. I thought, you know, I just trained like anyone else, but clearly over training.

Under nourishing, were two of the biggest factors and I just couldn't stop pushing. What, what part of you loved the pushing? The masculine side of me for sure. the ego side of me. I guess it generated something inside me that it wasn't always good, but that was a feeling that I always went back to because it was.

normal. what was the feeling if we drill down a little bit?

Rick And Nik (11:16.312)

The feeling might have been similar to like just a constant running, a constant adrenaline. I was never good at just sitting still and owning my feelings and working through things that way. I couldn't just be at home by myself. If I had, if Jada was at the dad's, I'd always have to be out doing something.

being still wasn't a good thing that I, that felt good for me. So the, the intensity, the movement, consistency of it, all of the stuff that CrossFit provides, really ticked the box as far as a legit distraction from what was going on in your mental emotional world? Totally, 100%. And it built me.

physically into something that I never thought would be possible. And is that where the ego part came in? It was like, Oh, look at that. Yeah. Yeah. Look what I can do with a, you know, um, and all I have to do is just turn up and do this thing that I love. Yeah. Um, and then what were the consequences of that situation from a mental, emotional point of view? Um, it was feeling like I always had to perform at a certain level. Pressure. Yeah.

Yeah. And that didn't really come from anyone else apart from me. You know, I guess you just...

people would, I thought people would expect things. well you've done this, now you gotta do this.

Rick And Nik (13:02.988)

Yeah, it definitely built an armor around me physically that I didn't realize would be so jarring on me emotionally. Okay. You know, like the physical side of things I was attached to hugely and part of me still is, you know, sometimes I think, I'd love to go back and do it again. But then when I sit with it and I'm like, well, why do I want to?

because look at her quads, like she looks amazing. You know, I wish I could do that again. That kind of thing. Well, I just turned 44 and I'm not saying that, you know, you can't do anything at that age, but what I, how I train now and what I do and how I, my body reacts and I want it to feel isn't aligned with that anymore. Yeah. At this point anyway. it's funny because I'm thinking about, like, I was talking to someone yesterday, started as coaching client and

I was explaining the like, what holistic coaching is for me, like the mental, physical, emotional sort of triangle. And it sounds like that now that triangle feel is a little bit more balanced, whereas around that time was probably like slammed in the corner of the physical. And the other two got a little bit left behind. yeah. I didn't know how to balance or even open doors to those other.

Yeah. Just ignore the shit out of it and training. Yeah. And then when I came to you, it wasn't long after that, that

We had a conversation and I can't remember the exact words of that, but it was to do with you allowing me, almost giving me permission to have a break. And I needed that from someone else because from myself, didn't, you know, and I even remember, I remember the last time when I finished a WOD or a workout.

Rick And Nik (15:10.002)

I placed my hand down on the mat and I literally said goodbye. And that even now what makes me want to cry, you know, I know the emotion that I felt. know who was coaching. was Chris at the time. I didn't know when I'd be back. I didn't know what this meant for me. What else do I do? just knew that that meant a lot. Yes. Yeah. Cause you're my people. and I think that was one of the biggest things about leaving.

is that I don't get to spend that time with people anymore. know, and that really meant a lot to me. I don't think you're alone there. Yeah, I bet. our whole posse is like, has a little space from what used to be totally. Yeah, I still have conversations with people about. I miss that crew. Yeah. Yeah. It was definitely.

something more than a shed. Yeah. Yeah, it was. that all stopped. Yeah, that all stopped. That all stopped because I had my version of like, need to rest. Yeah. And sort out my health stuff, which was probably parallel to some real similarities to what you're talking about in the keep pushing.

not knowing myself enough that I was numbing and distracting and busyness and striving and training and all of that. Yeah. And having to pull the handbrake on hard in order to,

I was in, was, my ass was on the bottom of the barrel. So there was nowhere else to go. had to pull the handbrake.

Rick And Nik (17:05.452)

What happened after that for you? I had a year off. I remember I was under a specific nutrition lady. I ended up having like leaky gut syndrome. I had some autoimmune stuff going on. My body just felt terrible and in constant pain. My

Um, stomach would bloat even after having water, you know, there was so much stress to it that, you know, I didn't have a period. had to work that back. Um, so it was literally. And for me, I'm that kind of person a little bit better now, but I like to know, okay, righty. I will, you're going to see a result around about here. And there was no.

clear sign of when I was going to get better or what that would look like. So how was that scary? It was terrifying because it was all I knew and my body had felt that way for so long. I didn't know what a normal feeling would feel like. And then how that would translate mentally.

And physically, what would my body look like after a year of not training? How do I eat now? Because I'm not training, you know, all of that kind of stuff, which I then later went on and did my nutrition coaching because of that. What was the fear back then?

Rick And Nik (18:58.595)

be so many things.

Rick And Nik (19:05.514)

not knowing who I was, people not remembering who I was. So that attachment to the identity and... not being good at something, feeling like I failed.

Rick And Nik (19:28.226)

Yeah. What's it, what's it feel like saying all that now?

Rick And Nik (19:34.678)

I can say it with some compassion.

Yeah, I'm definitely, I'm definitely a different person physically and mentally than I was back then. But I couldn't have got here without being that person either. know, and I had a great time being that person with some help from amazing people, you know, like yourself along the way that came into contact with me when I needed it the most to be able to.

me back and help me through that.

Rick And Nik (20:19.566)

Kind of like you need to scrape your ass on the bottom of the barrel. 100%. Yeah, yeah. To know that there's nowhere else to go. I think it's a bit of a tangent, but like, if we look at it as a ladder and if you're, anyone is hanging on to the second last rung or the last rung before you hit the ground, it's the most dangerous place. Because it's the, I'm okay, nothing needs to change, but things are pretty fucked, but I'm okay.

That's why I think the bottom of the barrel is, can be your best friend. Like it's uncomfortable as fuck. But it's super necessary to be like, something's got to change. Cause if you hang out on that first rung, you're like, there's a little bit of hope that things will get better and I can just keep doing this and I'm not happy or my body's not happy. My heart's not happy, but I can hang here. That bottom of the barrel is, it sounds fucked. Like it sounds bad, but.

Yeah. Get your ass there people. Yeah. It's, it's really one of the scariest things probably that will ever happen. but then it's, there's so much light that comes in after that as well too. And you really find more of a purpose and understanding and, and I think I'm a better person and coach and you know, I deal mainly with women now and

I see my journey in a lot of people and it doesn't have to be, you know, in a CrossFit gym, but just in life in general. Yeah, striving part. Yeah, yeah. And the overworking and the constantly having to, you know, to be better or look a certain way or, yeah. It's a real gift of that to have that experience and to be able to speak from a place of knowing. Yeah. To really...

I people when they're in that as well, like to really resonate with, I really feel you what you're going through. It's hard to do that unless you've been there. 100%. And I think that's like you said before, there's like when I asked you what it felt like to say that, you're like, can look back at that with some compassion now. And that's the gift, isn't it? Cause like you're a different human now and you've zoomed out and you have a perspective that's completely different to how you were back then. Yeah.

Rick And Nik (22:40.525)

And that's gift that you can give others is that perspective and yourself and the people around you and like. Yeah, no, you're totally right. It was definitely something that I couldn't have continued on with. And it was almost felt like a corkscrew that I just wound tighter and tighter. And at the bottom of the barrel that you speak of that just unwound and, you know, yeah, that was it. So what, what did the rebuild?

process look like for you? So the putting the parts back together, what did that look like for you?

messy. Well said. Yeah it is fucking messy. It was messy. There was a lot of tears. There was a lot of frustration. There was like snotty bubble crying. Yeah yeah totally on the floor in a fetal position. Um there was a lot of anger and frustration and what were you angry about? I was angry um that I just didn't think my body was good enough.

which probably resonated with thinking that I wasn't good enough now. Cause who am I without that? Who am I without being a coach or a person that was, you know, that people looked up to or, what am I going to be good at now? What does, yeah. What does everything about me, which was all the physical, not realizing that I hope if I leave anything.

on people is because of how I make them feel, not, you know, what I looked like, or I want to train with her because she, you know, she's traps or whatever.

Rick And Nik (24:27.338)

but I didn't realize that and then you probably you don't when you when you caught up in in all of that as well too. I didn't anyway. Yeah. Yep.

Rick And Nik (24:43.725)

Yeah, it's, I think that this messy part that we're talking about is the reason that people hang on to the bottom rung. Yeah. Cause it's the fear of that messiness and the unknown of I was so retained in what I did. It fitted into categories and boxes. Yeah. what do I do with that space? Yeah. You know, I tried hot yoga because it gave me.

that sweaty heart racing, you know, but then it wasn't good for my adrenals. And then I went to yoga and I found this old lady in town. I shouldn't say old. was, she's in her sixties. Long hair, trained in India, like super. Old school yoga, yep. I anger yoga.

And I'd been to some other yoga places in town and in Kingscliff and you know, it was where everyone sort of dresses lovely and they have the matching outfits and you know, and I was just like, something doesn't feel right. I can be in this environment, but then I knew that I would be trying to do the same thing.

So I went to visit Julie and it was up the stairs in this like.

old room in Mulwoolumbah, you know, there was pictures of these Indian men doing backflips. You know, imagine it was a beautiful environment and it was very humbling because everyone was older than me. Like we're talking about, there was women in their seventies and an 80 year old in there that had been doing it and that were far more.

Rick And Nik (26:50.947)

what I thought yoga was flexible, you know, and I cried in my first session because it didn't feel like me. It was too slow. It didn't give me the feedback that I was after. But holy shit, it was humbling. And I just kept going back and going back. And I've been with Julie on and off now through both pregnancies for about 10 years.

Yep. Yep. And I've only just gone back at the end of last year after we had Poppy. Was just trying to find the time, know, 5.30 at night is hard when you've got a baby or a toddler. Definitely. And now our routine is well oiled enough that I can be out of the house for that hour and a half. Yeah. And everything is sort of smooth sailing. So it sounds like there's a version here that's like you're

this process is like learning to love yourself in a new way. Sure. Like learning to be like, and it sounds like that part of that new way, the humbling part of it was that it may be the opposite of what I've done in the past. Yeah. That's what I really need. Yeah. I don't know whether that was a learnt thing or whether it was just something that

I just had to do and I'm morphed into, you know, guess to being a single parent, you always do put yourself last. It might just be a parent as well too. But when I had Jada, it was just her and I, I had amazing family support, but you know, I couldn't just go and do classes whenever I wanted. I had to fit in with her schedule and

Yeah, everything sort of revolves around them and then you just get a little bit of a piece at the end. And then I think that's why it hit me so hard with the CrossFit was because that was the first thing that I found that really gave me an identity that I loved again. I thought that was what it was. Yeah.

Rick And Nik (29:07.15)

But yeah, moving into...

Okay, well you help people so much with what you do. What if you showed someone or what if you showed yourself that much compassion or empathy or what if you said no to someone else to say yes to you? And that's so foreign. I wouldn't even think of it. You know, that's how foreign. here, but I'm smiling. That's where I'm at at the moment. Those things where I would not even have thought,

Okay, right. Well, I don't know. I didn't think of that. Yeah, I'm trying to think of and everyone else

Rick And Nik (29:51.055)

Sorry, what do you mean? Sorry, I think I just derailed you then. That's all right. What I was hearing was like putting everyone else first. Yes. Because, and then you get the scraps essentially of time and space. yeah. And I mean, I don't really remember mum doing anything for herself when we were small. You know, she raised three children. Dad, they always had businesses. So...

I guess dad was always working. I don't, know, mom never went off with girlfriends or had time for a cell for anything like that. I, whether or not that was just mimicked and I just thought that was something you do unconsciously model. Yeah. And there's no bad in that. It just, now it feels

It's very uncomfortable when I'm trying to do it like, oh, okay, I'm gonna go and do some yoga where I'd normally go, right, okay, yes, I'm making dinner first and then what does Chris need and what does Jada need? And I shouldn't be going because Poppy's only two when, know, what happens if she needs me? Well, she doesn't, she just needs a doll and well, she does, but you know what I mean? Everyone's very capable of, but for some reason I just thought that.

That's just not what you do. But when do you do it? Yeah. Good question to ask. question to ask. Yeah. You know. When does that happen? Yeah. I guess now we're out of that two first two years and we're quite very routine with that with sleep training and everything. And that was an absolute blessing.

just making sure that everyone else is getting their stuff as well. It gave me something I needed too. This is what I'm thinking about, There's like that validation part of Everyone's good, I'm good. I'm being really valuable here in this family. I'm being relied on, being counted on, I'm being consistent. I have this little spectrum, I think we spoke about it the other day, like external validation and self-validation.

Rick And Nik (32:14.254)

And it's kind of roughly what we're talking about in a roundabout way of like, I'm doing all the things to make sure everyone else is okay and happy. I get something from that. But when that's the core intention of me feeling valuable, that I have to do all these things for everyone else, that's when it gets a bit slippery. And then what does it look like on the other side to validate myself?

I need some space. I need to say no. I need rest. need whatever the, you know, advocating for yourself. And especially moms, but just humans in general, as parents especially, it's such a tug of war of like my needs versus theirs. And it's normally not until there's a burnout, a breakdown or something, a bottom of the barrel moment being like, something's gotta change. it's, yeah, it's interesting.

What do you think you got from being that person for everyone else? Well, essentially there was a bit of a breakdown that happened and I didn't realise it was that. But it came in like my relationship, especially with Chris. was I didn't want intimacy. I didn't want...

you know, any version of being touched. It was like I had this big, like my hands are up and I'm just pushing people away. It was like my body craved space, but I didn't know it needed that. Like I didn't understand why I was so, like even now I'm like, you know, trying to, yeah, mimic pushing people away or not wanting to be.

Rick And Nik (34:09.152)

Not wanting to be near people, but I didn't understand what was happening physically, emotionally and mentally. and that's why I. Sourced, a psychologist and you know, to work through these things and I didn't understand how the brain worked in, you know, in trauma patterns or anything like that. And, it's interesting that I was trying to.

any kind of, well one, I needed space for myself. Let's just clarify that. I 100 % needed to just go and do things, but didn't think I had the availability to just drop everything and run. You know, like I... And was that a story around guilt or like I feel guilty if I go and do this for myself? Definitely. Yeah, right. Yeah. And also like I didn't have the capacity to do that when I had, when Jada was young, cause it was just me. Yeah.

So there's that experience of the past. Yeah. And that's kind of replying that it's not actually true. Yes. Really interesting. Yeah. And what would Chris think if I just said, God, I need to just go away. Like what he think, well, what about me? I need to do some stuff too, but that's never been a feedback. He goes, I'll tell you if I need something, but I'm fine. You go and do you.

And even that was very shock to the system. I was like, holy crap. Like, what does, I don't know what that means. Okay. Well, what do I do? Okay. I'll go to the beach, which is great. Do I just like, how do I know when's enough time? So it's almost like I wound myself up just trying to relax to then get back to be relaxed. I'm laughing because it's so common. It's like, I don't know who or what I am when I'm not all these things. Yes.

And it's like the, the stepping into that, the experimentation of that is awkward and uncomfortable. It's like, what's too much, what's not enough. And it's, I like this phrase of like the curse of unearned guilt. And it's like the guilt we feel when we're actually not guilty of anything. Yes. You know, but it's, but it's the experiences of our past that are being rubbed up against and making us feel some sort of guilt.

Rick And Nik (36:30.638)

But you're not actually fucking guilty of anything. No, no, it's, it's pretty insane how it works. And I know that if I just get myself to the beach and I jump in the ocean and I sit in the sun, sun seems to give me so much energy and that, yeah, the beach, I spent a lot of time there when I was pregnant with Lux, after Lux and it just,

I could go to the same beach because I love it. I love the way the water is there and everything. It's easy to swim. It's a beautiful outlook. Crispy pose there. So there's a lot of special memories that keep, you know, happy place. Yeah. I keep going back there because it just, yeah, as soon as I get there and I get in the water and I sit back down, I'm like, my God, this is it. This is, this is all I need. Yeah. Yeah. I don't need to.

specifically be doing or going or I just need to get there. So do you know what that is? That's self validation. Is it? You're giving yourself the gift of the thing you need and you're not doing it. So if you were there and you were Instagramming it and putting it on your stories of like having some time out, that turns it into external validation. Yeah. Cause you're searching for something for others. Yeah.

But when you're there solo, swim, sun, breath, that's self love. Cause you're not doing it for anyone else. And it's interesting because Chris loves, he likes the beach, but I could be there for hours. He hasn't really got the skin for it. He's a little white guy, not little, he's jacked. But yeah, and it's not fun taking...

a toddler out, you know, I'm worried that she'd get burned and you know, all that kind of stuff. She's been to the beach before, but if I want to go and just have some me time, it's not for the whole family. Like it's just, um, and sometimes I've felt, I've felt selfish with saying that like, Oh God, we should be going together. We don't get a lot of family time together. You know, all of those sort of things that might come out, but, the guilt, little voices of guilt. Yeah. But Chris will say like when he,

Rick And Nik (38:54.895)

when I come home he goes, you physically look different. You know, you are calmer, like your skin feels softer. And I do, I just. It doesn't have to be huge, doesn't it? doesn't need a week in Bali. No, no, but I do love Bali and Bali does bring me that. I've actually thought about moving there, so. But yes, no, you don't have to do anything that extreme. You don't have to be paying money for it either. You know, it's just finding something that.

you need to do or that brings you joy. Yeah. And I think it's more about what that act symbolizes as much as the act itself. Yes. So it symbolizes that you are loving on yourself. You're making time. You're having a boundary. You're having a no. You're advocating. It's all of these things. Even if it's going to the beach for half an hour and coming back, it's like, what that represents is a huge amount symbolically.

I can do that. Yeah, it's good. Everyone's happy. And I do feel something chemically as well too. Like there is this thing that yeah, makes you feel alive but calm at the same time. Like I have a little bit of control over what I can do. And also working through that I trust my body enough

to give me those signs and believe in it to understand that I am worthy enough for happiness. How you talking? And...

to be able to do something for myself. And I deserve that.

Rick And Nik (40:48.887)

Yeah. Mark drop. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I'm worthy and I deserve it. Yeah. Powerful words, you know? Yeah.

And I, yeah, I don't think it's something that I have been fully able to do since Luxe either. You know, cause you kind of just feel so like you're holding on so tight all the time. Are you happy to share a little bit about that? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Let's talk about that. Yeah. Um. So you guys got, this was after you guys got engaged marriage.

No, it was before. I, it's interesting because I'd always been a big believer in marriage. I just thought that's what happens and what you do. know, and Chris and I had been together for five years and I'm like, what are we doing? Like, well, Chris is like, I really like, yeah. Chris is like, don't know if I want to get married. And I'm like, okay. Well, I thought I did. And

I said, do you want to have any more children? And I asked this earlier in our relationship because there is five years difference. He's younger than me. And I said, look, I'm really open to having more children. Let's just not discuss it too much after I'm 40. And we got together, you know, when I was about 35 or something like that.

Anyway, it was like three months before I was 40 and Chris came to me and said, look, I've been really thinking about having children. And I knew from him saying this that he had really been thinking about it, you know, because he goes before that, I'm really happy with you and Jada. I'm not that kind of person who sort of thought, yep, I need kids. Anyway, long story short, three months later, we fell pregnant with Lux. Cool.

Rick And Nik (42:47.259)

And we're all like, wow, this is great. Okay, no worries. We're going through it. And then...

Rick And Nik (42:59.247)

I mean, obviously I'd had Jada and this was like 16 years apart. So pregnancy to me just felt like something you just sort of go through. You know, I had your normal morning sickness and all the genetic tests and everything came back fine, you know, cause over 40 you classified as geriatric. Such a harsh word isn't it? Like, Oh my God. Anyway, so everything was.

Perfect until it wasn't. So we'd gone away for a weekend. We'd away for a week. This was in the beginning of June because we thought we'll go away for a little holiday before. Lux was due to be born in October. We came back and we're due to see the midwife. We'd gone through the public system because she happened so quickly that I didn't have time to increase our insurance to go through the private.

So I wasn't overly happy with the public system and that's you know a chat for another day but it just seems so long between visits and things just didn't seem as

Rick And Nik (44:15.456)

as nice as the private as in... A thorough? Yes, thorough. That's a better word for it. Thanks. Yeah, thorough. Anyway, I would woken up the morning I was supposed to go to see my midwife. I'd actually got in contact and I was seeing a private midwife, not just going through the hospital. And I was training people and then started to have what I thought were just pains. And what week were you in?

We were 25 plus 3. So like 7 months.

Rick And Nik (44:57.135)

Long story short, we, I'd finished training people. had to drop Jada and her friend at my mum's at the pines who were looking after a while. We were going to see the midwife who was in Crumben. Um, I got there and I was like almost killed over in pain. I was like, Oh my God, like this is no one seemed to be in any urgency or anything. And then they tried to find a heartbeat, like just a normal scan. Um, like with a Doppler, which doesn't come up on a scanning device. It's just a little heartbeat.

device and they couldn't find one so they sent me to the hospital at tweed still nothing I was panicking yes I was gonna say how were you with that Chris and I were both panicking I was in pain yeah I didn't realize there were contractions because Jada was so long ago and I was in juice with her and then had the epidural so I didn't really understand what was happening yeah anyway we got up there and up to the ward and they

We had to wait for a while and then I was put into a room like a normal birthing suite where no one was in any sort of hurry and then they came and did a natural ultrasound. And I remember looking at the screen and it was just this floating image. And I remember saying, there's no heartbeat. And the lady who was doing it like turned to me with this really weird look on her face and tilt to her head and she said, no.

And it was one of the most out of body experiences that I've ever had. went into like, I think I just went into panic and started screaming. And then we had people in everywhere. And it was like, after that happened within a couple of minutes, my water broke naturally. I was in labor and I didn't even know it. And then within an hour and 20 minutes, like it was all over.

from when we got there to when Lux was born. And it's so interesting because like for Chris, that was his first experience of being a biological parent and for that to be your first experience. I didn't even know these things still happened. I knew that miscarriages were around and horrendously one in four.

Rick And Nik (47:25.356)

Miss Carrie and then one in six has stillbirths. know, and.

Rick And Nik (47:35.437)

We spent five hours in hospital. They were great there. They really were. We could have stayed overnight. We could have done whatever we needed to do. Meanwhile, we're in the birthing suite. You know, we're in the maternity ward of a hospital where you can hear crying babies. So we chose not to stay there. And it was so weird because that then meant we had to walk out without a baby.

So it was so jolting to have, you know, to walk in there pregnant and then, thanks, then to walk out without having a baby. I remember the cool air hit me of a night time. We went straight to my sister's house where my parents were at the time and where Jada was and her friend.

And then we went back to Chris's parents where we stayed because we didn't want to go home. We stayed there for a couple of days. And I just remember waking up in the middle of night like crying. And it completely changed the trajectory of.

our lives, you know, you have this vision of what your future looks like and then it just gets completely ripped away. Nik, my heart is racing and my stomach just feels so empty. I'm really feeling the enormity of this. Yeah, and I think the further it goes on, like you know, she would be four this year.

And I think grief or loss, it doesn't change. Your world gets bigger around you. Like a beautiful friend of mine said that, who'd lost her husband to motor neurones disease. She said, grief doesn't change, but our world gets bigger and your world will get bigger. You know, but you're in that club. And I've heard other grieving parents say that you're in a club now that no one wants to be in.

Rick And Nik (49:53.167)

And it then changed the way that we, and both Lux and Poppy were conceived naturally. I think people thought after 40 that you'd have to always do IVF or something, but no, we're very lucky. So how did...

Rick And Nik (50:14.306)

How did that experience impact how you felt about trying again? We allowed my body three months to, let's typically say what the doctors say, heal. They say you want three good cycles. And I think after having Lux, it wasn't a no, we're not gonna do it. was the when, when are we going to do it? You know, so.

but it definitely grief does rob you of the joy of that next part. Yeah. The, even the getting pregnant was a lot different to getting pregnant with Lux. You know, it was almost a job of this is what we're setting up. Yeah. And I thought to myself once, or we just need, we just need to get pregnant. That's all we need to do is just get pregnant and then everything will be okay.

And it wasn't the case, you know, we got pregnant and then it was like, holy shit, okay, well, let's just get to 12 weeks. And then let's just get to, you know, 25 plus three when we lost larks. And then it was. And we, I, as soon as I, we decided that we wanted to fall pregnant again, I, I did go back to private and I did go back to an obstetrician at John Flynn where I felt safe. Yeah. And they were hugely, um,

They were amazing around all of it. And, you know, we'd go monthly and then whenever I needed to, really.

But yeah, it definitely robbed us of the joy of being able to have a peaceful pregnancy. know, Chris found it hard to go to any ultrasounds and he did go to the majority of them. And then towards the end, I just said to him, this causes you too much anxiety. We don't need to worry about that. But we had a...

Rick And Nik (52:26.208)

It was very tough on my body. I couldn't do any form of exercise. I ended up having an overactive uterus that would contract. And I started fainting as well too. So there was a lot of stuff happening. I thought it was all good, you know, but then after you sort of think, God, that really does take a toll. And towards the end, I wasn't on bed rest, but I had to be quite still often.

Yeah, yeah, which for me was really hard to understand what that was, you know. And then to be okay with trusting my body and every little niggle and every little, luckily Poppy was a very active baby. So I knew she was there all the time. she's giving you, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, totally. And I knew that. And I knew that even after having Lux the way that we did, that that was a true gift as well too. Yeah. You know.

not for it to be drawn out or find out and then have to go home and then have to go back in for an induced labour or anything like that. Like she gifted us that moment where even though it is one of the most horrible things that a person will go through and feel as a parent, she gifted us that...

Rick And Nik (53:51.971)

that peace and stillness that we got in that room by ourselves. Chris's sister came to visit, but we didn't have anyone else there. It was just us and Lux.

And then we ended up, we had an autopsy on her to make sure that everything was fine, which it was. And then we got a chromatitis, so she's at home with us, which feels like the right thing to do. We didn't want a funeral or anything like that. I don't know whether that was just us not knowing how to, how to even put that together or whether it was just something that we really resonated with, not. It was just something that we went into.

Yeah. It's like a knowing. Yeah. Yeah. So trying to find sort of looking back on that now with me and how I am, the trusting in my body is a big thing and knowing what that feeling feels like. And also that sense of, okay, well, what it's okay to be happy. It's okay to feel joy.

It's okay to be a little bit out of routine. It's not going to, your world's not going to fall apart. know, there's little bits of me that it's like I'm bracing all the time just in case you get hit again. Brace for impact. Yep. Yep. And then it sounds like you're giving yourself a little bit more grace, a little bit more like it's okay to. Yes. Yeah. It's, it's, it's okay for me to feel.

And I think that's something too that we did our own grieving Chris and I in different ways that made sense to us. But I think it's just a different part of that grieving process now where I'm just revisiting it a little bit more and allowing things to emotionally come up when they need to and being okay with that and not just pushing it down. did you tell me that story before we gone?

Rick And Nik (56:04.91)

call on the podcast? we spoke a little bit about it, yeah, when we caught up for coffee. No, the situation last night watching TV. Oh, um, yes. Yeah. Yeah. When I was, um, did we put that on the podcast or was that outside? I think it was outside. Yeah. And just share that. Cause that's a really good experience of what you're talking about. Um, so I am in the middle of a Netflix series at the moment and it was just sitting there and, um,

I love medical shows and doctors and all that kind of stuff. So a lady had lost her baby and had to give birth. So she had a stillbirth. She'd lost it in transit. I'm not quite sure what had happened previously. And I...

I just started to cry over like was just overcome with emotion of just being punched in the gut again. your heart just gets ripped out and knowing exactly what happens. and I was just sitting there in the lounge and as I was telling you before Jada, our eldest came out to get a drink and saw what was on the TV. It looked at me, checked in, came over and gave me a hug. And I tried not to cry because I wanted to.

her to not feel upset, you know, and for her to say that, I'm okay, but I wasn't okay. You know, like these things happen and they happen more often than we'd like to know. And unfortunately that is our family story. And Lux's legacy will live on through, you know, through our lives in many different ways and probably in the biggest way that makes me a better mother.

and a more caring and a more present and a more available mother. Yeah. That gift of like, it's okay to not be okay. It's okay to show what's happening. Yes. And the years don't necessarily make it better. There's more time and growth in between, but you know, there she will, she is always on our Christmas cards, you know.

Rick And Nik (58:23.392)

We will always say her name. She's always part of the family. Poppy says her name. We talk about her often. And you know, I think people think, I don't want to bring it up. I don't want to make you upset. Believe me, anyone who has had a loss.

It doesn't make them upset. They get upset. Anytime. It doesn't matter. You're not doing them a disservice in talking about it. It's actually nice that people remember. I had a version of that yesterday, moving into this house and setting up this room and that picture up there of that farm is my grandpa's farm, which where my dad lived. And it's been in his office, in my dad's office on that farm for the last 20 years after my...

grandpa and grandma past. And I always wanted to put it up in my workspace and I got to do that yesterday. And had a little chat to dad and a few tears of like, he'd love this dad, like you'd love this place. You'd love to see that that picture is up. And even now I just get teary about it because it's like, it doesn't change how much I miss him. And it actually, I love having conversations about him.

and I love the emotion that it brings up because it just means that it's important. Definitely. Yeah. And it's real and it's raw and it's, it's very human. Yeah. Very human. And, so I'm working through that at the moment. when you say working through it, is it, is that around giving yourself permission to not fall back into the

putting that brave face on. Is that what it looks like? Yeah, part of it for sure.

Rick And Nik (01:00:20.834)

being able to sit with my emotions and feel safe with them and you know the different parts of the brain and your reality they don't always you know they're responsible for taking you you know to weird and wonderful places but it doesn't always it's not always the end game you know it's

Rick And Nik (01:00:47.618)

like feeling safe with knowing that.

know, Poppy's going to be okay if, you know, I'm not there all the time. I can leave the house and she's obviously with a father and a sister generally. And if something happens, you know, like Chris is a great parent. He knows what to do. Yep. He feeds her, he bathes her, he puts her to bed. You know, he's a very present parent. But I also understand how that

that experience can be one that's going to take some doing for you because you raised Jada as a single parent. Yes. So that's the experience, that's the history for you. So that's the past that's there. So I can imagine that it takes a little bit of effort to not drop back into that. Yeah. And sometimes I was doing things that I didn't even realise. Yeah, fully. You know, like Chris goes, I'm here too.

You know, I'm just so, I was so used to doing everything. And Chris came onto the scene when Jada was 10, which was so brilliant because, you know, she had stability for that next part of her life. And it was so necessary in her journey. Yeah. Yeah. And we love being dads.

Yes, of course you would. It's our best job. It's our favorite job. Yes, yeah. But I just didn't have that experience in the first half. it doesn't mean that he didn't enjoy being a dad. It was just a different dad that I thought that Jada needed. And maybe he was doing the best that he could in the situation that he was in, you know. And she still sees a dad now and she has two other siblings and...

Rick And Nik (01:02:46.828)

You know, it's the relationship that they have, but I have to know that I'm not responsible for that relationship. And that was hard. Yeah, I think that as a general theme is hard, like not being responsible for what others think or what others feel, what others, how they react, like, yeah, especially the independent, the ones that prefer to be in control, like all of that stuff that we have these elements of.

Not being responsible for someone else's reaction. Yeah. Is super important and super fucking hard to get to. Yeah. You know. Yeah. I didn't want her to be disappointed. Yeah. But life is disappointing sometimes. And it's important that they have the full gamut of those. Yeah. And it's how they grow and how they, their brain changes and you know, all of that kind of stuff. So it's, it's important that you felt.

sad sometimes, you know, and I tried in every aspect to make sure that didn't happen. Yeah. In the past. Yeah. Thinking that that was the right way to go. Yeah. Yeah. A reflection of you like I need to manage this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it sounds like there's a little bit of letting go of control. Yeah. And a little bit of permission to be you a bit more. Yeah. Yeah. Because not knowing who I was, if I let go of control, then what if people don't love me?

For what they say, what does that look like? You know, and sometimes I still don't know really what that looks like and I tighten up the the reins a little bit and I see that through parts of my cycle, you know, when my hormones are Yeah, a little bit Not all over the shop, but it's it's just how your body reacts to it and When I'm in that heightened state I try to control more

I want things to look a certain way And what do you get from the control? Like what does that give you? It gives me a feeling of, ah, okay, rightio, well that is presentable and neat and tidy and in its place. I've done that so nothing should happen. Let me rephrase the question. Good answer. I just want to go a layer under that. What is the emotion you're avoiding by having more control?

Rick And Nik (01:05:22.542)

That's a good question.

Rick And Nik (01:05:27.416)

The emotion I would be avoiding would be...

Rick And Nik (01:05:35.032)

Look, it could be feeling in general. could be literally just feeling anything. That old pattern. Yeah. Yeah. Because that control of being busy. Was the go to. Yes. Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah. So.

actually having to feel something can be unnerving and open up. Well said. know, a lot of areas which, you know, I have just bawled on the lounge for 40 minutes over a TV show or an ad or an Instagram post that I've seen, you know, that you just...

you know how they're feeling and you know what comes next and so so is that what it looks like for you because

Rick And Nik (01:06:31.334)

I'm thinking about like, we don't want to like the fire hose analogy of like turn the fire hose on and like just come at me feelings like I'm ready. Yeah. Like we don't want that. But what is it? What is like walking into the shallow end of the feelings pool look like on a practical level? So is it that sort of stuff of like permission to cry of an in like, is it that sort of stuff for you? And not knowing what I'm really crying about sometimes, you know, I'm just releasing or needing to know energy. That's it. Releasing energy, you know, not

doesn't have to be name specific or I'm just hurting. It might always be because of the underlying reason, because of luck. whether it's because I'm worried that if I am happy and joyful again like I was then something bad's gonna happen.

It seems to, and now I'm just trying to move.

Rick And Nik (01:07:37.742)

through the day or however you wanna say it, just.

Rick And Nik (01:07:44.971)

knowing that, okay, if something does arise or if I do this, then there's other safe, I can think of these other safe ideas that will come into play that doesn't always have to be one extreme to the next. Yeah, yeah, that safe word's important. It's gonna be okay. And if it's not, like my brain keeps...

I generally go back to the old patterns to try and realize, okay, right. Well, I know that I'm also safe if something does happen because I know how to, it's almost like I'll put my hands up. I know how to deal with it. You've got enough evidence to. Yeah. Your brain works weirdly like that, you know, but yeah, moving away from that. No, it just as a general theme. Like I see that we're talking about, you know, bottom rung on the ladder and putting your ass on the bottom of the barrel and

the fear of doing that. And it's kind of like a similar thing what we're talking about here, like the fear of feeling. instead of like jumping in the deep end, always try and think about what's like a, what's a practical step to walk in the shallow end and just dip your toe in, in the feeling pool. What does that look like that feels okay? You can take it out and be like, okay, that was a little bit uncomfortable, but I didn't die. And it's just, when I'm working with people, it's like, what are the...

the real practical things that can build the pool of evidence that you can start to get into your knees, to your hips and be like, okay, now we're feeling and I'm not gonna die. It's okay. And I get to walk out of the pool. So it's just those little examples that you can give yourself permission to have. And it sounds like you're doing a really good job of that. Yeah, I'm definitely trying and I'm definitely better at being a little bit more.

empathetic with myself and not so harsh. That's a whole nother podcast. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. What are you excited about either at the moment or looking forward? Like what's, what's exciting you in your world at the moment? I'm excited about the fact that we, that things are so calm. You know, that's

Rick And Nik (01:10:07.464)

Never been my.

Rick And Nik (01:10:12.13)

go to or like even in my my family and I love my family but we're all loud and boisterous and you know the energy can be huge and I never realized how much that sort of resonated with me and it's like I feel more even after Lux I feel energy more or something's different it's like it cracks you open and you you don't get to close that back up in a good way

So I'm excited to learn more about myself in those areas. I'm excited to possibly move into something new career wise. I don't know what that is yet, but you know, I know that there's something deeper out there, whether it has to do with helping people with grief work or whether Lux was just that.

transition for me to move into something where I'm deeper to therefore be able to move into something in that level. don't know, but I'm excited for that. Yeah, I'm excited. As I said, the calmness is very scary for me and feels unnatural, but it's so beautiful at the same time. So that is exciting.

for nothing to be happening. That's exactly what I thinking. It's like the excitement of the uncomfortability of being calm with nothing happening. Yeah. And at the same time, knowing that I'm feeling pulled towards something with more meaning in my work. Yeah. I find that balance of like acceptance of the now and a desire for things to be slightly different, a really beautiful, you know, conflict that we can hold. Yeah. And I find that's really common with people.

can there be some form of acceptance of how we are right now? Like I am enough. And can we have this other part that's like, I am enough and I'm really interested in this and I wanna do more of it and it's meaningful to me. And so it's like, can I not shame myself for moving out of the I am enough and I want more and still be in the I am enough. So it's like.

Rick And Nik (01:12:33.832)

The analogy I use is like one foot on the dock and one foot on the boat. And it's like, can I be like doing the splits as the boat moves away? It's just the two things. And I think it's a beautiful dance that we get to play with. And we get to notice in that. Is there some sneaky shame about the push? About the wanting more? Like what's the story and the dialogue that's attached to that? And where does that come from? Like there's some really nice work we can do around that.

especially from a calm place. Because I think the work we do from a calm place is very different to the work we do from a place of chaos or a place of stress. Yes. Very different. from that for long periods of time. I'm excited for you to be in that calm place and to have one foot on the dock and one foot on the boat. Yeah. Yeah, most definitely. And to raise a child in a family.

Yeah, I didn't get to experience that with Jada and you know, she did for the most of her life from 10 with two parents in the house. That doesn't mean that it's any better or worse. It's just different, you know, and it's really lovely to have that person there as well and work as a team. Yeah. And to see that. Yeah.

It's like I have an out of body experience and I can see it's all there and that's just how it's supposed to be. Yeah, well it lights the heart up. Yeah, totally does. Well thank you for coming in, this has been great. Thanks for having me. So good, so honest, so real. And yeah, don't know, this is the first time you've done anything like this. It's the first time that I've done anything about talking privately about my life.

Yes. mean, I've been on podcasts before where I'm talking about nutrition and training and you know, all the things that I have answers for. And you know, I feel like I'm good at and sound good at, but yeah, when it comes to speaking about my own life and personal tragedy and all the rest of it, you know, it's, you never know what comes up on the day and what emotions show and thanks for making it a safe space. No, it's my pleasure. And

Rick And Nik (01:14:55.618)

the messiness of being human, you know? And all the gold that comes out the other side. it's essentially the core idea around the whole podcast. So I think this episode has been a really good representation of that. So thank you. My pleasure. Thank you. Cheers, Nick.