Ep 17: Befriending shame with Sophia Richmond-Manno

Show notes.

Do you ever feel like you spend more time in your head than in your heart or body? Sophia gets it, it’s been her default way of navigating the world, using intellect and achievement to feel safe and valued.

In this episode, we dive into the deeper layers of this pattern, uncovering how it’s often tied to our sense of self-worth and the subtle ways it can protect us from feeling and facing shame.

Rick and Sophia share candid stories about their journeys to befriend shame, both within themselves and in relationship to others, reflecting on the profound transformations that can unfold when we allow ourselves be seen and held in our raw humanity.

Keywords

psychotherapy, vulnerability, shame, self-support, storytelling, presence, emotional connection, Gestalt therapy, personal growth, healing, shame, worthiness, acceptance, self-love, emotions, vulnerability, community healing, self-discovery, mental health, Gestalt therapy

Transcript

Rick And Soph (00:01.954)

Sophia Richmond Mano, welcome to the podcast. Hello, Rick. Thank you for having me on. We're laughing because I had to ask you your last name. Yeah, yeah. We don't, maybe that's leading into how we know each other. Yeah. It's funny. Quite a few people I actually know only their first name. Yeah. And when I come on here, I'm like, that's embarrassing. It sort of shows how...

how well or how, hmm, how well we can know someone but not know their details. Yeah, and I think also is it important to know people's details? Yeah, not. You know, and I was just saying to Rick earlier before we jumped on that, you know, when we're talking about the name, the last name piece is that sometimes I'll have a really deep and sort of seemingly profound conversation with someone in the supermarket just off the cuff. And I don't know their name, but the transmission is there. Yeah, fully.

And so it's like, there's a magic I feel in like not knowing the details about someone because it's not really who they are so much. It's how we know them on the outside. It makes me think of those three levels of dialogue or three levels of conversation that I've spoken about on here and maybe we've spoken about in Gestalt. It's like the factual, the personal and the relational. Yeah, right. It feels like those details are like in the factual. Yeah. Yeah.

people like you and I are not too fussed about the factual. No. It's not our favourite place to hang. No, I always like to get underneath that. Yeah, cool. Well, we have a bit of time to do that. So before we jump in, I'd like to check in and see what it's like to be you right now, physically, mentally and emotionally. Okay. Well, I'll start with physically. I feel some anxiety in my chest.

I think, well I know because I'm this, I'm sitting in a chair speaking in a microphone knowing people are listening to me. There's excitement and wonder about where we're going to go.

Rick And Soph (02:14.232)

Was the other question? Emotionally. Emotionally I'm feeling quite light and open actually today. Cool. And then there was one more thing. Mentally. Mentally. Stories, thoughts. Stories, thoughts. In this moment I feel...

Mentally grounded and okay Yeah There's probably more to that, but I don't have access to it right now. Yeah. Yeah, and I'm guessing that You're feeling a little bit different today than you were this time last week. Yes We were meant to record this this time last week, weren't we? We were and I I had gone for a run and usually I would just come home and like get ready, you know, it was like

like a little intuition, it's like no go and jump in the water you've got time. So I went down to the beach which is close to my house and I was just in awe of how beautiful it was and there was people surfing it was just glistening and I jumped in the water and was reveling in the experience for a little while and then all of a sudden my eyes were stinging and I was just like shit what's going on and I don't know what it was it's either a blue bottle or a jellyfish but I got stung across the eyes.

So was sort of processing that feeling and being like, okay, something's happening. I don't know if I'll need to go to the hospital. I wanted to close my eyes, but I knew I had to drive home. And then I was like, also wrestling with the piece in me that's like, oh, the little gas lighters like, oh, I wanna go and do this podcast. I've said I was gonna show up and I don't wanna disappoint Rick and let him down, but like, this is actually a real thing that's happening. So I was having this.

This tug of war was going on within me as I was home and then I sort of got home and I was like, what do you do for blue bottles again? Is it cold water? Is it hot water? Like I don't want to weigh on my own face. you know, all these things. then, yeah, I remembered it was, I think it's warm water. So I had to compress and then I was like, Rick, I've copped a stinger to the face and I can't come. It was so funny because I was on a call.

Rick And Soph (04:29.75)

to a client friend of mine who's in Texas. And I got your message about like blue bottle to the face, can't come to the podcast kind of thing. I was like, Jesus, that's hectic. And because I was with this client, it that we could go a bit longer in our session. And I'm like, I've got a really Australian story for you. Like my friend just got stung on the face by a blue bottle so she can't make the podcast. And she's like, what is going on over there? But yeah, that was fun.

Yeah. So yeah, I imagine you're feeling a little bit better today. feel a lot better. But I also feel like I'm a big believer in destiny and paying attention. And I was supposed to do some work the day before. I was supposed to do some work the day before after we were supposed to record the podcast and that got cancelled randomly. Yeah. And then that happened. So was like, okay, I'm being called to rest. So I stayed inside all day and rested and, I just trust that we're here today because that was a better timing.

The second one's always better. Yeah, yeah. I've had a few false starts. One was an audio thing or internet thing. One was one of the ladies just decided not to, she wanted to put that in the world. And the second one's always better. So this is unofficially our second one. Unofficially our second one. But yeah, there was so much going on just in terms of like, just honouring what I needed, honouring my needs. And I think, know, Rick and I studied together in Gestalt. So we're learning a lot about.

what honoring your needs are and we talking earlier about honoring you know and all of these little nuanced relational things that even when you're you know interpersonal evolution and into like self-work and all of these other things that many of us are in that studying that because that's where we're interested in those sorts of fields it's still so complex and nuanced to actually tell the truth to yourself to others.

It's wild. All right, I'm just going to dump my little check in. I shouldn't say dump. I took the stage too long. No, no, it's good. I love a bit of storytelling. I am physically feeling... I'm still on the back end of a little bit of a cold. So I'm conscious of like not coughing into the microphone or any way in your direction. So is that that's a little bit of my chest. Body actually feels pretty good.

Rick And Soph (06:56.705)

Yeah. Got a good walk in with the dog yesterday, jumped in the ocean. it was good. Mentally feel a bit scattered, feel a bit pulled in a few different directions at the moment. Moving house on Monday and literally put this podcast space back together for today. And got some coaching tomorrow. other than that, the house is boxes and chaos and dust and...

But we're probably, I don't know, 90 % there, so that's feeling good. Um, emotionally...

Rick And Soph (07:39.672)

Feeling really, I'm gonna use the word, equanimous. nice, yeah. Feeling kind of in the center.

noticing that there's some big logistical financial things happening and not getting too attached or stressed or going with the flow. So I'm just, it's good to notice for me that those things are not pulling me in a direction that I may have been pulled in the past. Yeah, that's nice. So that feels good. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's Cool. Thank you for sharing. So, how do we know each other?

We know we don't really know each other. We're talking about kind of laughing about this earlier. Rick and I started Gestalt Psychotherapy year one together last year, but we're in different groups. Yeah. Yeah. We were strangers in the night. We're strangers. I do remember you. I feel like I remember you from the first day though, or the first weekend. Yep.

And I'm more familiar with you than a lot of other people. So we have two groups. We had two groups last year and I was in the blue group and you're in the green group. We had about 40 students that started, wasn't it? Yeah. So there's many people who were in Rick's group that I sort of, you know, I know their faces, but I haven't had too much contact with, but I feel like there's been a, you know, a connection, whether it's been energised through dialogue or not, if that makes sense. Yeah.

just in our little breaks and lunches. And then I think we shared a couch at residential for one of the talks or the presentations. And just had a conversation. was like, Soph, do want to come on the podcast? And they were like, hell yes. Yeah, that's where it happened. I think we were talking about grief. And I was like, classic me talking about that, that sort of stuff. it's super interesting. Yeah. So that's how we could have.

Rick And Soph (09:44.195)

We probably only have a handful of interactions. And that's interesting because most of the guests on the podcast I've known either a long time or I know deeply for a short time. Yeah. So it's really cool. Like I feel like this year is all about stepping out of that safety for me in this environment. Yeah. And I said this before, I'm like, I feel like I'm getting to know you on a podcast rather than in real life.

They're the same, Yeah. Yeah. So what, the start of last year, or even the year before, when you were thinking about doing Just Start, like what drew you to that? Okay, well I had been in a huge run up wanting to study a psychotherapy for many years, and I was sort of heavily involved in working for a company that I really loved, and I just, you know, I was working full time.

working with people, working with herbs and health and all these other things that I really loved and just figuring out how to slide out of one thing and into the other thing. So that was all sort of cooking along and then we had like floods and all these other bits happened. So it got put on the back burner. And then, yeah, and the last, I'll probably talk about the last two years, I think it's probably most.

my transition to actually studying something was that time. So I had moved back to Bello, Bellingen, where I grew up from the Northern Rivers. Just, I feel like this place has a knack of like when it's time to go, off you go. And when it's time to stay, it locks you right in. was, I got a few messages that it was time to go. So I followed that as I do.

And then, yeah, I spent like 2023.

Rick And Soph (11:43.727)

still figuring it out. And I was looking at, I started another course in psychotherapy with another institution and, can we say which one? Yeah. Icon. yeah. Cool. And all the content, such good reading content, except it was online. And I was always really against, like, I'm a very long winded person, so this is going to be a long story. I like to talk. I like to talk.

Yeah, and I'd been looking at army and R'ing with them for a while and they were kind of like just, you know, you need to start or we're going to put you on the blacklist. So I started with them, but there was something about the online. Like I never thought I, I never wanted to do that, but then I was like, I'll give it a go because everything's online and you know, it was set up fairly well. And then some friends at the time sort of told me about Gestalt and I didn't know much about it. Like before I applied,

in January, I think was, yeah January last year. Yeah, a year before now. before? Yeah. Yeah. I only knew about it for a couple of months and the reason why I decided to switch is because I was like, Gestalt, I can't hide here. I just knew, there's part of it, I just knew that it's because it's the way it's set up, like we learn in group and we're all in person together and it's very much about...

being, I like the fact that it's about being with the sensations of the body and being in the present. And I'm a very intellectualized person and it's been my coping mechanism for life, being very emotional, but also just not having the environment that that emotionality was allowed to come out in the ways that it needed. So up into the intellect, the energy goes. So I just knew.

that that was, Gestalt was gonna be the thing that I was like, I can't hide from myself here and it's gonna be an edge and I was ready to be seen, which is terrifying but also I knew it was part of the growth that I needed to be the person that I feel is in there. So I go off on whimsical tangent so I might forget what you asked me. No, no, it's good because some things that jumped out to me there.

Rick And Soph (14:03.342)

You used the term, I wanted to come out of hiding. Yeah, essentially. Yeah, and what I heard in that was come out of hiding from being in your head to coming into your body and your heart. Yeah, yeah. And it's been a big journey. I've studied, like I did half a degree in atropathy, I've done yoga, I've done all these, and also lots of self study.

I'm just going to stop you. I'm just going to swing you around that way. So you're facing the mic more. here. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's better. Yeah. There we go. Yeah. Cool. Sorry. I just to get those levels right. and just bring it in a little bit. Yep. There you go. There we go. Cool. sorry. You you were studying that. Yeah. I've done all these things. I'm always been, I think the crux and this is something I think about a lot.

I'm like, am I doing, what am I doing in my life? What am I interested in? What am I passionate about? What's underneath It's big question. Yeah, and it's become clearer to me lately that it's compassion. I want to understand why we hurt each other. And I believe that underneath the pain and the hurt, there's goodness. And so all these little random things that I've studied have been through different lenses of trying to work it out.

and get to a point of there's harmony there. So over the years, dropping out of my head and more into my body and knowing that the missing link in terms of my own self evolution and healing and whatever word you want to use and that of others is you can't do it all through your mind. And the body is this incredibly intimidating but powerful.

vehicle and presence is the thing that clicks it all over. So Gestalt is sort of like the more I learn about it, not that I feel like I'm any expert in any way, the more I read about it, it encompasses lots of other little random bits that I've studied like Taoism and you know Zen and all these other things. And it has this other background to it, which is all about when I look through, you know, when you sort of

Rick And Soph (16:25.006)

swish away all the scaffolding it's about presence and it's... Can I pause you there? I pause you Yeah, please.

How would you say your level of presence is after doing the first year compared to maybe say five years ago? Oh, like 110%. Yeah. Cause if you think about the word hiding, it's a pretty powerful word. Yeah. Hiding is like the opposite of presence, it? Yeah. And whether that's a, like a practical hiding, like not, you not going out in public or whether it's a intellectual hiding of like trying to.

be valuable through story and intellect. So I'm interested in...

I'm always interested in the story under the story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm interested in what was, what were the conditions where you felt like you needed to hide? Oh, that's a good question. And those conditions, hmm. Because I mean, I think, well, I know I always say I think, I shouldn't say that. I can use another term. I feel. I feel, I feel.

It's an unconscious thing. But the message that I got very early on was, and when we've learnt about enduring relational things, which we were talking about before, which is essentially how did your formative experience influence how you show up in the world now and the stories you tell about yourself. Good, bad and indifferent. So I guess for me, I just got the message that

Rick And Soph (18:15.754)

my voice didn't matter and I didn't really matter and there wasn't a room for my emotional expression because yeah there just wasn't room for it so I had a whole bunch of shame around the grief that I felt from being exposed to things that I didn't feel were, I knew weren't right and

Yeah. So that's in terms of hiding. It's been like a semi conscious thing. It's just, it's been a survival, it's a survival mechanism, isn't it? They're getting your needs met being like, well, if I have this way, I haven't been shown that if I'm exactly as I am, it's going to be accepted. So I have learned how to, uh, maneuver around that. So, so what were the practicalities of your adaption? I can use the term. So how did that show up in real life?

like the maneuvering, the adapting, like what did that look like on a practical level? Well, like for me, it was like learning a lot about psychology, studying people, studying myself and rather than being in an emotion, I would understand it and be able to repackage it through articulation. So I could be vulnerability forward and tell you.

you know, I could be quite raw and have it really well packaged in an eloquent delivery of like, this is what's going on, but actually being in the emotion in the present with it in front of someone and having them, you know, be with it. And how would you benefit from that experience? Like, what did you get from being the person that had the knowledge and that, what did you get from that?

acceptance, understanding. And I love understanding other people too. think, well, I feel, there you see that. The brain's just, this is going to be very exposing if I listen to it back again. Yeah, because that simple catch is like you moving from your head down to your heart. Yeah. I think I feel. And I love to love, like I just, love loving people and I love creating safety.

Rick And Soph (20:37.945)

This is something that I've been in dialogue with a few friends about recently and it's like I really love to be someone who feels safe for others and I don't always nail it and I'm really interested in learning about all these different ways that we miss each other and being able to provide that for the people I care about and even people I don't know because I feel...

Like that's what is going to change. Some of the harshness in our world is like, we were talking a little bit about this before too in a different way. It's like this reprogramming and repatterning and holding. And that's something that I really enjoy the process of being able to offer others because I know. Pause, pause that. Sorry. No, finish your thoughts. Sorry. should have interrupted. was just going, going back to enjoying relational themes and now I.

and understanding the next layer of myself through those lenses and study and being like, why do I do this? It's because I didn't get that. And I want to, in some way by providing it to other people, I'm giving myself room to something about that love, unconditional love, acceptance, compassion, peace, that by practising it to the people that I care about.

in the ways that I can. I'm also allowing myself to take up that space as well. There's something. So you're giving yourself the gift as well as the other. Yeah. Cool. And then there's another, there's another sneaky thing about that in terms of like actually allowing the receiving to happen. So much sneaky things happening with that. I can see you grinning. So yeah.

Rick And Soph (22:31.062)

allowing the receiving to happen. So when people do express what you're offering, is it the ability for you to actually take that on board? Because it's not a natural experience for you. Yeah. And it's this last year, Gestalt has been so interesting.

on that, like I had a big linchpin moment when I had my storytelling. So we did this at the end, I think it was like, was it the last weekend? Last weekend, had to, we were separated in three groups and we had to tell our story in about 10 or so minutes. And you could do that in any way you wanted, like a poem or a video or whatever.

And I chose to share, which I've shared this myth with you, because I think this is what we were talking about when on the couch, when you like, do you want to come on. There's a myth called the Lindworm and essentially it's a little story about...

loving the exiled parts of ourselves. And so I remembered this myth and I was like, I'd love that. I wanna share it with, I wanna share this as part of my story. And it went for about nine or so minutes and I cleared it with our head teacher and then I was gonna talk about how that related to my story.

And so when I was doing my storytelling, I sort of said, I'm gonna play this video, it goes for this amount of time. And then the teacher who was taking my group was like, that's a bit long. And then that was like the first, it just threw me. It was already nervous. And my confidence, my excitement the day before, when we were talking about in group, like how we're all feeling before our storytelling was to begin the next day. was like, I'm so pumped and excited. And then after...

Rick And Soph (24:20.246)

I was getting more and more nervous and being like, fuck, am I prepared enough? Like what's gonna happen? Anyway, so that sort of threw me in the process. And I played this thing, the myth, and then I was like trying to gauge, I'm like are these people getting it? Are they like, what is this chick doing? Like all that stuff. And then when I went to tell my story after, and then flipping another little side note to this is like.

I had set the intention of being like, want to be witnessed in my ultimate vulnerable ugly expression. Yeah, cool. And then when I went to tell my story that happened. So like, I don't know if anyone listening or if you Rick have had moments where there's a big well of emotion that's coming up and I lost the ability because I'm such a good at

controlling things and I didn't have any control over what was coming out. So funny. And my whole face was turning red and it was contorting. Like right now I'm touching my face and demonstrating. I was just like, and it was wanting to like the, and if you watch this myth, the Lindworm is this like terrifying big worm like creature, like a dragon that kills everyone. And it's just like, I want to come back to you.

Yeah, but this is what was coming out of me. I became the Lindway, which was hilarious. So that this ugly part of me, well, not even ugly, this very human part of me that I had labelled my whole life as an exiled and being like, that's not acceptable, I must push it down, came out and I had to be witnessed by a whole group of people through...

what felt like a really heinous experience. And what was really cool about it was I was able to, because in the past, if I'm feeling shame, because that's what was encased over this. And I've been working a lot with what shame does. So interesting. Yeah, we can talk about that. That's the theme of this. I was able to hold eye contact through my tears and through my like...

Rick And Soph (26:42.423)

emotion with my peers and and hold that and it was powerful and so terrifying and and being me like I another layer to it was like you know I'm so used to being able to deliver quite intellectualized eloquent and I'm known through my work and my friend groups as you know so full be able to write this or say this or explain this and this was the opposite of that

It's the worst ever. So I'm looking around trying to pull pieces of like my story and seeing people like... And it was just, it was fucked up, Rick. Sorry, keep going. Anyway, got to the end. And at the end of this storytelling process, another part of it was that we were being sort of marked on was sharing resonance. It was a resonance exercise. So we had to sit there and... For the participants who were listening. Participants who were listening were to say, you know, when you said that I felt this and...

So that was another layer of being seen. That's wild, that shit, isn't it? And I went second out of everyone. So then I had to sit through the rest of the weekend listening to everyone deliver their beautiful poetic stories and feeling this like monster of shame on my shoulder being like, you did it wrong. You did it wrong. And having that there and being like, I didn't do it wrong. And still, you know, then listening to others who delivered things in a way that I...

found so beautiful and so moving and being, cause you know we're studying to be present with others and bracketing off your own bullshit. So you can be with other stories. So was this whole practice of what we're learning in this doc. So I could be like, I don't need to go on a shame spiral on a story about me. Cause right now I'm listening to my peer. It's a good muscle to build, isn't it? Yeah. So was very multi-layered experience. And it sounds like that, um,

If you talk about the theme for that was touching on parts that you'd exiled. Yes. And the practical lived experience of that was literally that. Like you expose parts of you, the out of control, the messy. It's so meta. It's so funny how, you you nailed your intention, but just in the most uncomfortable way. Funny. Well, when I realized after, I was like, great.

Rick And Soph (29:07.982)

I it. Dominated. But in the moment I was like, oh no. And you know, the teacher that I had who was holding the space, I really respected and admire. And there was part of me that was like, I really want to impress my teacher. Like these little bits. And then one of the beautiful things that came out of it, was so many, so much learning, was one of my fellow students, Brendan, beautiful guy. Hey, Brendan. Hey, Brendan.

He shared some resonance about a picture he had this visual. So when I was sharing my stories, like I had this visual of like a beautiful old French wine barrel, I think it was. And when you get to the end, you get the clean water and you wash all the muck out. my teacher was like, you know, anyone who shared like a visual thing, she asked them to...

write it or draw it and give it to the person after. So he did that and he drew the picture and it said something like, and I still have it because it just touched me so much. It was like clearing out the beautiful old French barrel to make way for something new. And I was just like, just fucking, you just encapsulated my whole, like particularly last year, but the whole, this big two year period where I've just been,

I've had, I've been in the underworld with myself and been challenged by lots of outside things and I've just had to sit with these ugly exiled parts and also the victim narrative. And I need to come up with a different word because I don't like this victim-ish, I don't like the word victim because I feel like there's shame attached to it, but there's a part, there was a part of me that I, even though I was aware of it, I couldn't get out of it yet. You know, and you have to suffer long enough until you're like, okay.

That's done now. So there was so many aspects of like this year, this first year of Gestalt and the experience and what, and what is like, yeah, that linchpin moment. Cause that storytelling, it was felt so heinous for a little while. And then I was like, once I realized, I was like, oh, this is great. This is perfect. They just got this gift. And I think what that demonstrates is,

Rick And Soph (31:31.821)

The power in the right setting, if we are vulnerable enough in a safe setting that we can be witnessed in our shame, in our exile parts, know. Because I had a really similar experience. it was like after that weekend, after that storytelling weekend, I had a 50 pound weight vest taken off me. And I was just a lighter human.

so beautiful. Because I spoke to, I spoke about my epilepsy and living, trying to hide it most of my life and trying to overcompensate on the other side while hiding it. And I spoke that story for the first time ever. Yeah, wow. In that storytelling. And similar to you, like even I was messy. I was like...

snot bubble messy. Yes, love it. Like right from the first minute I was like fuck, I was hoping to get at least two minutes in before this started and

And the experience was amazing and to hear the resonance from each person of what they got from my story or what touched them was a level of collective being seen that I'd never experienced before. And to me that had the biggest impact of like, I can, in a safe environment with the right people, I can bring my fucking.

dirty, darker secrets that I think are terrible and other people can get something from it and it can be okay. And to me, because we're talking about shame under the cloak here.

Rick And Soph (33:24.546)

That's the definition of dissolving shame because it's in community, it's in public, it's out from the dark. And the shame operates in silence, in isolation, in exile, in our minds, in our bodies. So for me, it was the full lived experience of like, I've just talked about this deep dark thing. I've gotten back this love and didn't die.

So it was like this extreme experiment in evidence of it's okay. Yeah, my fuckery is okay. And part of you did die and that's why it's painful to share. Yeah. It says the part of you that thinks it's not acceptable has to die. So then there's another part that goes, I've got a bit more room to be more of myself. And with the shame piece in terms of you speaking about it, it being...

in the shadows, something that I've practiced with in various situations, especially in the last year, I had some stuff happen with an ex-partner and infidelity and living in a small town and just not feeling like I could be on the street, just all this stuff that's yucky. And I would get hit with these big shame pockets and I'd be like, I just want to do my groceries. And I'd be like, what is this? And I sort of got underneath what the actual crux it was, wasn't about any of that, but it was something else.

And I've been practicing when I feel shame, I bring it close and I say, come here. Like, you know, if you've done any like inner child sort of that you practice with, like bring your little five year old self and, you know, let it sit on your lap or whatever. bring, I bring the shame close to me and I say, you're welcome here. We're safe here. And I take my time. And even if it's in the middle of wherever it is, and that has been so powerful for me to be like, I can have that part.

And then the light, it becomes, minimises. And I think I wanted to speak to, in terms of you were saying, what we can do when we're in the right environment of support with others. But there's another aspect of when we talk about change is self-support. So in those moments, either of us in those moments, if we didn't have enough self-support, we could have just gone back into a shame spiral and isolated ourselves and be like, it's not for me, no. Shut the door.

Rick And Soph (35:49.991)

This is what I work in with my clients all the time is that I'm really glad you brought this up about the self-support. It's a really important part of the change process. And I think for those playing along at home, it's like the self-support, then there's also reaching for the external support. And what you're talking about and what I talk to others about is the, for me, external self-support is reconnecting with those parts. So for me, the practical side of that was.

this year in therapy, got to know my 13 year old who got teased by kids in his first year of high school because he had a seizure. And I hadn't processed any of that. I just drew it back in. So I got to know that kid and we got to do some work with him and he hangs with me now. So similar to what you said, it's like...

when that shame starts, when the symptoms of that shame, I can feel it in my body. My self support is to go to him and go, dude, let's hang. Like it's okay. We're in this together now. You don't have to do this alone. You don't have to hide. We can roll. And that contributed massively to being, feeling safe enough to speak that story in the storytelling weekend. Cause I have my 13 year old sitting next to me.

Yeah. And we did it together. that's so beautiful. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And sometimes people that haven't been exposed to that kind of work, that can sound strange. Yeah. But, you know, I think it's not a stretch to say that we have all these different parts of us. And a lot of the parts that are attached to negative, to fear and shame, we have a natural tendency to want to push them away.

And they need to be heard is what I'm learning more and more. It's just them wanting to be heard. And you go, okay, I'm listening. Then the tap on the shoulder, the voice becomes lower and all those other, those dysfunctional sort of things start to minimise because it's like all humans want to be seen, heard and acknowledged. And all of those parts in us that didn't get for whatever reason, like, you know,

Rick And Soph (38:11.894)

It's a survival at the end of the day to push it. Okay. Got to push that down and get along. Like, I'm really sorry that you were, you know, criticized for having a seizure. That's shit. you know, young kids are cruel. Yeah. And they don't, and we don't understand. And that's the thing. It's a lot of this stuff. A lot of the pain that we cause each other is mostly just due to, just misinformation and misunderstanding. And we don't have, especially in our culture.

We're not colloquial, we're not, what's the word, like socialized to speak in these ways and speak to these parts of ourselves. it's just toughen up, get on with it. Toughen up, get on with it. There's no space for it. That's a, you're being dramatic or whatever else. And that's where these, then it's like the parts of you, when you start learning about them, you're like, who's running the show here?

Like I'm a 36 year old woman, is my five year old still running the show? And like, maybe we need to have a little chat about that. And you know, all of these things and being kind, like, like I was saying before, like I love to be kind to other people, but practicing that kindness back on myself in the ways that I do, nuanced ways that I do for other people. I'm just like, wow, it's powerful, but it's overwhelming. Yeah. And it's really interesting because I've been playing, I'm doing some reading about shame over the holidays.

And it really clicked in about the different layers. like, what is the behavior of trying to hide your shame look like on the surface level? And it was talking about, even people pleasing, perfectionism, control, catastrophizing, like all these different elements of what our psyche can show up on that practical level. And then I kind of...

pulled the thread down to a lot of those things are attached to, I enough? Can I prove to everyone else that I'm enough, that I'm lovable, that I belong? And then the next layer down is like, it's the shame emotion that I don't wanna feel if I'm not. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, it's an ego death. Yeah. So we all have some form of the top level.

Rick And Soph (40:31.501)

behavioural protecting, chasing worthiness validation, that sort of stuff in various degrees. But then if we look down to the worthiness layer and then under that is the shame of not being enough. I think that's, if we're looking for the story under the story, that's a pretty solid place to hang. Yeah. And it's this fear, like umbilical fear of maybe it's true. So many things.

Maybe it's true that I'm not enough or I'm not lovable or blah, blah. And how do we, you know, especially like in our world where success and achievement and how we're valued our value system and what we're rewarded with is hierarchical and it's based on how much you can prove you've got a talent. Like, you know, it's not just like you can paint a line on a page. So you're an artist too. It's like,

You know what I mean? It's this systemic issue where it's so refreshing to have these conversations because between us, can have some, there's room, there's a bit of like inspiration, enthusiasm, we can take that out into our circles. But what's important to remember, what I try and remind myself and others when we're speaking of this stuff is that we're in a systemic system where we're...

we're gonna be given the opposite message at all times. And so it's part of our activism to have these conversations. You know? Yeah. And then bring it to the light. Yeah. Unshame the shame. Unshame the shame. And then it loses its power. Because it's like, if it's lovable too, then it's like, okay, cool. And that's the part. Yeah. So I think that's what swings back now for...

you know, the paradoxical theory of change is that big A word of acceptance. Can I accept this part of me? Can I accept the part of me that had epilepsy and had seizures and had to be medicated and had bad side effects? Can I accept that part and take it to the world with love? And I think part of the thing for me and with working with others is seeing the superpowers that that shame provided me with.

Rick And Soph (42:52.397)

Because then that to me is the doorway to more really felt acceptance. It's the both sides. Can I love on the shadow and the light? So for me, the superpower of feeling the shame of feeling like I was broken and had to hide that part of my world was I overcompensated and became really fucking good at sports and school and...

You know, it's probably not dissimilar to your intellectualizing and making sure that you... And while that part of me can push to levels that don't have a... Like it feels like a bit of an empty, bottomless bucket. But the skills that it's taught me and the drive and the confidence and the push are a big part of my life. And they've really served me. So I can't...

I don't want to just be like, all right, that bit's gone. I've got to love on that part. But by loving on it and seeing the shadow of it at the same time, for me, means that...

that the light of awareness is stronger. So I can see when it's unconsciously grabbing me versus when I'll have intention around it. Yeah. And when I'm listening to you, I'm just thinking about creative adjustments. Yeah. So in Gestalt, we call, I guess we don't use the term coping mechanisms. It's a little bit cuter. It's a creative adjustment.

We're like, you know, getting your needs met essentially and our organisms are so brilliant by design that they will find any way to meet a need. And that need might be like you were talking about before having to push certain parts of feeling you had to push certain parts of yourself away. So you developed other parts that were more acceptable and celebrated.

Rick And Soph (44:45.495)

and they were functional in that time. And then it's like reassessing is this adjustment still functional and what else is possible and da da da da. So yeah, bringing it back to Castel is something that I really love about how it articulates these things because it's just so kind. And it's celebration of what we're capable of and it doesn't put the shame on.

and there's room and drawing right back to what I was talking about before in terms of like me trying to get to the crux of what I believe in and why I'm doing what I'm doing is compassion and one of the questions I ask myself is like how do we love those that are unlovable? How do we love those in society that do atrocious things? You know, who gives them, who gives those people love because they're also a human being and anything that one human being is

perpetrating or doing is a possibility for anyone because it's consciousness. Yes, we don't all choose to do things, but this stuff, that's where, when I think, when I get excited about how far can... That's the real road test, isn't it? Well, it's love. How far can love compare? How, how, I feel like our, our vessels and especially our hearts, it's endless. We have the capacity to...

endlessly hold space for the darker shades of our humanity and others humanity. And it's just like the alchemy of going through the processes where there's obstacles to that and judgments come in and like, yeah, how do we apply this stuff to things that are really unacceptable? And that's the stretch. That's the work.

Yeah. I like it and it freaks me out a little bit. Yeah, I can tell. I'm like, when everything went quiet. No, no, no. And the only part that freaks me out is the...

Rick And Soph (46:50.126)

I'm just learning to drive my bus. Yes, yep. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm still, I'm still working out how this thing works. You know, and then to project out that far for me seems like such a stretch because I'm still kind of trying to give that love to myself. No. So I hear it and it freaks me out a little bit because of my, it's not infant, but it's only young capacity to be that for myself.

regularly and consistently. And you need to be that for yourself. Yeah. And then can I be that for my son? And then can I be that from a partner? So for me,

Rick And Soph (47:38.732)

Yeah, I always try and bring it back to like, what's the practical side of it? And when you were talking...

I was just thinking about what we were talking about before with the superpowers of shame.

thinking about the practical side, a lot of these conversations I haven't had before. Okay, oh cool. So, you know, like they touch on things in different ways, they touch on things that I haven't thought about before. And I was just thinking about like that superpower of shame of like overcompensating, striving, how that showed up for me at the end point was burnout. Yes. Mental, physical, emotional burnout. Yep, been there.

And I think it's a really interesting, excuse me, it's a really interesting marker.

for us as humans and people listening of like, how hard am I pushing? And what's the reason I'm pushing? Am I pushing to fill the empty fucking bucket? And is there a different way? Yeah. And what's driving this insatiable desire? Could I just do nothing? The non-doing, that's something that I, especially at the moment, cause I've...

Rick And Soph (49:05.046)

I've recently moved back to the area and I haven't been working for the last like six weeks. And there's part of me that's loving, trusting that space and knowing that I needed that. And then there's another part that's like, trying to be ambitious and, you know, tick the boxes and do all the bits and be practical in the material world. then, and you know, I read the Dao Ching quite often. Essentially every page in a different way says, how can we just be non-doing, being, allowing, letting seasons to be there and

It's so simple to conceptualize and to speak, but to practice it is really fucking difficult. when I talk about, know, when you're saying that this idea of like this, how do we hold space for just all of humanity with this stuff that we're talking about, and that can be really freaky and it is freaky. I experienced the freakiness as I get excited, but then I wonder if I can, can I do it? I sort of know I can. When I pair all of that back and even just pairing back to like what are,

how can I be a good gestalt therapist or just a good human? It's like, what do I need to do in my life where I'm conditioning my vessel enough so I can hold more presence or I can actually be in the non-doing and feel safe in it. So that ripples out and translates to others. Hopefully I'm articulating. Yeah, that's sort of where my mind goes in terms of like,

I like to go into all the nuance and then I like to bring it back to something that's just like really simple because essentially that's this whole, how do we synthesise all of this information so it's not just all little parts but it's this one crux and it takes about 12,000 steps to get to the one crux. And I think what you said before around like the cultural conditioning to achieve and be validated works in the face of our need and desire to

be to rest, be in the present and be still. Because it's the opposite of what we're rewarded with. Rest is not rewarded. And it's such a common thing that I see even through the Christmas break, myself and clients that I've spoken to since the start of the year really struggle to down regulate from pushing for Christmas.

Rick And Soph (51:33.411)

doing the thing and then resting because their system is just like activated. Yeah and then in the rest you often feel really shit. Yeah. Because you've been pushing and anything in the striving is the pushing away of what's actually present for you in any given time and the processing then when you stop

There's a conglomerate of processing that needs to happen and that can be really good funding. like I better go into each of the shit because like obviously I'm doing something wrong but the feelings that can be uncomfortable in those spaces are fucking perfect. They're just uncomfortable. So it's this whole like, know, I've been in, yeah, in the last two years this has been my life. Like being really in the, not really doing much, living back in my family home, having...

stepped out of identities and lives and things that I'd built and being like with just with myself and being being actually what present and it's it's fucked. It's so shit. What's been the toughest part of it? Just being present with emotions. Yeah. And because I feel things so deeply and in such a nuanced way.

And yeah, just an insights and ownership, ownership of, know, like whenever I want to point the finger outwards, I've got a whole hand pointing back and how do you hold both at the same time and, know, holding the awareness I have about psychology and how, why we do the things we do and why we, you know, getting need, we do things because we have a need that needs to be met and it might not be functional. So when

others' behaviors have caused me pain, holding space for having that understanding, but also holding space for like, just because I can understand the psychology doesn't minimize the fact that I've had an impacted me and I need to process that. So it's just, I've just been sitting in sober awareness of my visceral experience and lots of things that because keeping busy and

Rick And Soph (53:55.567)

pushing things away, I just had to sit in it. You know, think maybe it was like May or March, maybe it was March, probably just before Gestalt. I feel like I cried like gutturally every single day. And I was just like praying going, can I get out of it? Like, come on, but I couldn't, I just had to, I just had to feel it. So. I just want to stop you there. Well done.

because it is easier to be busy and not do that. So just well done. Thank you. It's huge. And I think in some capacity that work that we're doing or we'll be doing is an expression of that. It's like giving people the skills and the space to feel. I think at the core of it, you know, we think about the whole resonance part is like, can someone else

feel safe to be them and to bring their parts and to actually feel the shame, to feel the fear, feel like to all the stuff and for it not to fall back into that default of like, fuck, I need to push this away. Like it takes courage. Yeah. And it takes support. And it's, I think what you're talking about is at the essence of the work that we do. Yeah. Because it's...

it's providing the scaffold for people to feel. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And because you've had this deep lived experience of that over a long period of time, you can resonate in a lived way. Yeah. And it's not lost on me as much as I've like gone through this process and you know, very much invisibly a lot of the time. Yeah. It's also a cosmic giggle.

feel like, do you get this in your life where you're like suffering but also laughing because you're like, I know this is exactly what I've asked for and it's giving me the tools and the understanding and the actual empathy to go, I've been there, know what that feels like. And the more, when I go, I wanna like go and work with like prisoners and people who have done stuff that's not nice. I'm like, I'm gonna have to face off with.

Rick And Soph (56:19.832)

some deep feelings. And that's just part of it. Like it's carving out what I feel and especially like why Brendan's little message resonated so strongly for me was just like clearing out so much. I've got more room now. Cause my own shame and my own emotions that were like up to my eyebrows, trying to push it down. Now it's out of the way and I've got more space to be, cause I'm not trying to hide.

I can actually look someone in the eye and be like, I'm not scared they're gonna see my grief because it's changed form now. So it gives me more space to actually be with people and be present and hold the space that I wanna hold and just more space for like, yeah, understanding shared humanity and bringing it into the conversation. Like you said, like you don't have to be okay all the time. I've always hated like,

How are you? I'm good thanks. Like what does good mean? It's just, it feels like just a fucking tennis. I agree. I vehemently agree. Like it freaks me out. And there's another thing that came up last week for me. The term fake it till you make it. Yeah. That hurts me. Yeah. Because that's a mask. Yeah. And it's like, is it okay just to be shit or to be a beginner at something or to be exactly where you're at? Yeah.

You know, and it's a similar sort of vibe. And this culture, like I was speaking to a client last week and I was like, I'll just fake it till I make it. I'm like, tell me about that. Where did that story start? Yeah, I love that. Can't we just be shit? Yeah. It's really difficult to just allow yourself to be shit. Because it's the, for me, what comes back for that is like, then I have to potentially confront the shame of not fitting in.

being loved, not belonging. It's that little, that glimpse of the potential of feeling that. Yes, key. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not even, it's like the, not even the feeling of it. It's the scared that I might feel that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What's going to happen? Yeah. Maybe I'll just feel it and then I'll move through the feeling and then I'll be in a new spot. But that's, Most people don't get there because there's a version of fake it till we make it. You know, there's a mask, there's some armour, there's.

Rick And Soph (58:45.216)

Yeah, and for me listening to that, like, don't know if I generally do the fake it till I make it that I'm aware of, but I'll, I'm the step behind where I'm like so terrified of getting it wrong. Yeah. I won't even fucking do it. Yeah. That's the other part, isn't it? And it's just like this paralysis and the, this is something I've thought about for many years and just getting see sinking into what it is. Like the, the actual, how

Terrible and terrifying and yucky. It feels to be so scared to take the step actually It's the same on the other side of actually taking this day. It's the same feeling It's just you're you're gonna get over here or not Yeah, but to break through the threshold of those two things is the the alchemical magic and to have enough self support and then environment like it's this It seems like the the gap

is so small and so vast at the same time. all of life exists in that gap.

and it's just wild and then you're like I need to have a nap now because it's all a bit much. So what is the fear for you?

Rick And Soph (01:00:03.411)

When you're in that situation, in that story where it's like, I'd rather do nothing than get it wrong. Like what's the fear there?

Rick And Soph (01:00:13.56)

you like that.

It's vulnerability, the fear of, like we were speaking of before, like the fear of like what about if I'm not accepted or I'm not enough or what's gonna happen? It's mostly the fear, I think at the crux of it, I feel, at the crux of it, is the fear of feeling what it feels like to be a beginner. Yeah. Cause it's, that's the, and that's presence, essentially, to be with all of life.

as it is, whether it feels elating, if that's a word, or it feels stormy, just being, I'm here, I'm with it, it's moving through me. And on another little segue, something they've been practicing lately when emotions arise, especially it's been more poignant, because I've been in this whole, just like, like I've just been in this relaxed state of being in a situation, living with my family.

It was really difficult and I just needed to get out and then finding a place just and it was all perfect and now I'm free and I've been feeling really like yay la la la la la and then when something that stormy comes up I go anger is moving through me grief is moving through me I'm not I am not stating I am this but just it changes the tone and I'm like okay I can be with this it's moving it's just moving through me rather than like there's a tendency in my mind to like

hold on to something and then make a story about it and how did I get it wrong and what do I need to do to like get back to this like non-present state that feels safe but actually is not living. So in terms of like when your question about what is it for you about not taking that step and what are you scared of it's just feeling. I'm just scared of feeling the depth of my feelings a lot of the time. Yeah, this is interesting because I think there's two parts to it because your first...

Rick And Soph (01:02:12.79)

The first response was, it was more about the perception that others would have about you. Are you loved? Are you enough? Do you belong that? And then really when you felt it, it was like, I'm actually fearful of feeling. And that's a very self thing. That's an insular. And I think it's really good to note this because there's an element of self that we all have.

Stories about and there's an element of what we think other people will feel Yeah, so it's it's both. It's like the projection of how others see us. Yeah, and then there's the story of self. Yes And I think that it's worth having awareness of like What is where is this fear and is it is it what other people think of me that side of it? Or is it what I think of me? No, what is the actual truth of this? Yeah, can it be both? Yeah

And asking, and having enough space to have the awareness to ask yourself questions like that is really powerful. Yeah, think I'm sorry, I'm going around with my mic. I think that's where the benefit of therapy and groups and circles and all the stuff, containers like what even our study, we have that's a that's a space to be present, you know, so it's.

I think that's the gift that people can give themselves is the, you know, on a individual level, it's can I stop and breathe and feel, and then do I have the capacity to share that, to get into dialogue and curiosity with that with someone else group? Like I know in our men's circle, it's such a simple process, but it's so powerful because it's a space where people can bring

all their parts and it can be resonated with rather than fixed. Yes, T. Massive. I come from a long history of being a fixer. Yeah. I think the energy of fixer, it correlates with our shame. It confirms it. Yeah. And it's when I, when I reflect on like having awareness around that fixing energy and just the acceptance energy and what people actually need when they're in distress or in

Rick And Soph (01:04:36.504)

something is just presence. I'm here with you. see resonance resonance. And when I've run over all the times in my life where that's been in my heart's intention, but the what's come out is this fixing. Cause that's what I knew the default I've had to grieve for that. Cause I'm like, my God, I missed this person that I care about so much. And I actually wasn't there for them. Like there's so many layers to these different experiences and then how to be present enough.

that we can continuously practice it and even when we're going into that other energy, bring it back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I actually think, and I'm probably not alone or I'm at the beginner stages and I'll acknowledge that. I don't have to fake it till I make it. That group work and safe sharing and resonance is the kryptonite to shame.

Yeah. And I think once the shame has been exposed to some kryptonite, your top level behaviors, so your surface level behaviors begin to change. So the people pleasing, the perfectionism, the catastrophizing, the control, all of those things start to lose their power and their pull and their manipulation of you unconsciously. And I actually think it comes back to creating, similar to our storytelling.

we both had this really deep experience of being seen in our darkness. And the backpacks are off. And then that's had a knock on effect for both of us in different ways. Yeah. And when I'm hearing you speak about like this this community based healing essentially, which is coming back. Like when you think about like there's a lot of grief work that's happening. There's all these old ways, these community ways that would have been practiced just as a part of life when we lived more together.

and not separate. you know, I'm a firm believer that the structural landscape that we live in, it is the way it is because it makes, controls us. a human that is confident and values itself and doesn't feel shamed and can accept its whole beingness is powerful. Is powerful. So bring all this work is...

Rick And Soph (01:07:02.444)

you know, bringing it back into group and bringing it back into just being humans together and allowing everything to be there. It's so powerful in terms of like turning over how societies are run and what people feel that they need to do to get ahead or to be anything. It just like pacifies all of that shit. And it's just sort of intrinsic to what we are built to do. Yeah. I think we just solved the world's problems.

yeah. Just on the couch in Murbaugh. Yeah. Yeah. But then it's the continuous practice. Well, that's the fun part, isn't it? And then in group, like another layer, like listening to you speak about group and the thing that's so powerful and just, just full, full spectrum about being in group is the amount of like energy in the space. Everyone's the, the, the activations that can happen in self and having awareness to be like,

That's not a wrong thing. That's just that person being that and how can I take some of that? Like there's so much going on and then there's someone, you know, in a gestalt way, there's usually a teacher or an educator being the like the orchestra conductor just so skilled. I love that's part of the parts that I just love to do that. When I think about down the barrel of what I want to learn about, it's like, you know, just

holding the space and letting all these things emerge and picking the threads that are gonna be healing for everyone. But being with ourselves often incinerator of so many different emotions and triggers and things going on and having enough space to be like, I'm right and that person's right. We're all right. Cause we're all accessing our life from a point of truth. And then how do we take the us versus them out of that and all be there.

And then we look at the wars that are happening all the time in the world. I think about enduring relational themes through the lens of war, something that I go, if I want to write my lit review, that might be interesting. Like, why do we, why do we want to kill each other and how can we stop? But pairing it back to group, there's all these little bits going in because it's like, that person said that. So that's threatening me. There's this, this war energy, this war consciousness is in us because of the way our society is run. But when we start

Rick And Soph (01:09:24.462)

all of this stuff back with shame and competition. humanness, yeah. To our humanness and being like, you're over there pointing it at me, but you're also me. Then all of a sudden, now we're all sitting together on the ground in a different way. It's just so much. And what I love about specifically, there's one or two facilitators in our program that are exceptionally well-versed in

moving people from story to their heart. And I love witnessing that because that is an art, that is a skill that takes a lot of time to be able to do in a group setting. And it's really powerful to watch someone deep in their story and like really attached to it. And then...

get one or two questions that just drop them back into their eye language and their heart and what's really going on for them.

That's a gift to the world. it's beautiful. I love it. I get so much out of it. And it's all like, there's so much going on because it's like an energetic, from my understanding too, the way I view the world, it's this energetic transmission. It's like there's words used to ask these clarifying questions, but it's also, it's like how to use your tone, what part of your body is that coming from? And that sort of has this like...

Not hypnotising, but has an effect and you can see it sort of encompassing, encompass, can't say that word, won't try, someone's organism and then they soften in a way and to do that in, to ask those questions with all that going on and having that skill so that the shame doesn't pop in and that person goes, oh, I just in my fucking story and making it all about me.

Rick And Soph (01:11:22.51)

So that doesn't come, that's a whole other thing. So this is so much, like I really love just watching all of that stuff too. A lot going on in group. Yeah. Especially when it's like 20, like pretty curious humans and yeah. And a lot of people come from having... there for a reason. But they also have like one or two degrees. They're a professional in whatever area. Like there's a lot of people that come with...

identity and you come into those spaces and none of that matters and that's confronting. Yeah. Don't fake it till you make it. No, well you can't fake it then. That's why I chose it. Yeah, you just can't. It's just like so brilliant and so heinous. Yeah. I want to ask you as a closing question. Yeah. What are you excited about? Just generally.

can be what are you excited about today? Can be what are you excited about for this year? Can be just, yeah, what are you, what's really exciting you on a felt level? I'm excited to see what I can do with all this new space I have in myself. Yeah, I'm in a...

feel like I'm relearning me. I'm in this relearning me zone because I've sort of been through the underworld. I'll go back there again, I always do, for fruitful lessons. I've, yeah, kicked, punched through this big layer of stuff that was inhibiting me from interfacing with life. And now I've got the space.

And I'm not really sure what to do with it yet. And it's the rethreading. So I'm excited to see what's possible for me. But I have no idea.

Rick And Soph (01:13:32.298)

what is yet. Yeah. It's very either, isn't it? Yeah. So no outcome, no agenda, just open. Well, they have those things, but because it's still so fresh, I've, I've been sort of obliterated into a billion different pieces. No, truly though. Just so, and I'm like,

It's just the very, very beginning of rethreading and I feel like I'm just beginning life. Finding meaning in the second half of life. Not that you're quiet the second half, like I'm more second half, but I just, that term of really getting to know ourselves in the second half of life, Who am I? What do I even like? So that's what I'm excited about.

But it feels really like even as I speak, I'm like, I'm just sort of blank. Cool. I'm excited about, I think I mentioned I did a podcast a couple of days ago and I was talking about all the practical parts of life that I'm excited about, like moving house and different things. I think one of the things I'm most excited about above and beyond all that is this year in our study focusing on the art of being a therapist.

for me that whole thing around not faking it till you make it. So not going in there this year and going, it's okay, I've got clients, I've done this before. it's like, can I come in at the level that I'm at and make the mistakes and get the feedback? And so for me, that's a real edge of like, can my ego just sit down for a bit and not have to prove that I'm capable in this field? Can I make mistakes? Can I drop the ball? Can I walk down the wrong path?

as part of the process of learning my art and not pretending that I think I know it all. Yeah, so cool. And can I just be a learner? Yeah. When they talk about being a learner. So I'm really excited about being a learner specifically in the art of being a therapist. Yeah. Because I think that's what the focus is now because we're about to start our masters for the next three years. Yeah. And we have the base level understanding of the...

Rick And Soph (01:15:54.831)

know, the tenants of Gestalt and enough to be dangerous, but not enough to, you but I think this year is all about using those tenants to be in dialogue with someone else and be supportive. So that, that's what's really exciting me. keep, I go through moments of forgetting about it and then go, we're starting a new tour February. Yeah, me too. And being teachable.

And it's such a supportive space. thing that I keep coming back to is we've got so much support in that gestalt space by educators that there's so much room to be teachable and to be a beginner. And what could come when we're completely open to, you know, just showing up for it and allowing someone to see something in us that maybe we don't see and develop and developing that in relationship too. Yeah. Yeah.

It's exciting. is. It's scary too. Oh, hell yeah. That's what we sign up for. Thank you so much for coming up and hanging out and jumping on the couch. And it's been my experience of this has been a rich conversation and I just appreciate all that you bring. Thank you. Such a pleasure. Thanks for having me on. I've really enjoyed it. No worries. That's um, we'll do it again. I've actually got next week.

John's coming back on. cool. So could be a double just alt special. Yeah nice. Well done. Yeah thanks Soph. Thank you.