Ep 16: Making the unconscious conscious with Melanie Briony
Show notes.
Melanie Briony knows herself really well. She knows she can be a bit of a people pleaser, she can procrastinate and she would prefer to avoid uncomfortable conversations.
But as someone who runs her own business, she also knows these parts of her don't really serve her as a business owner and more importantly as a human.
Listen as Mel talks about the different ways she has accepted her parts and how she has used breathwork and nervous system regulation to really come home to herself.
Connect with Mel: https://www.melaniebriony.com.au
Connect on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/melaniebriony/
Connect with Rick: https://www.rickwatson.com.au
Connect on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rickwatson_/
Keywords
podcast, personal growth, mental health, business coaching, self-discovery, people pleasing, social media, emotional coaching, fitness industry, change management, emotional awareness, breathwork, nervous system, self-discovery, support systems, personal growth, mental health, emotional release, trauma-informed care, relationships, emotional regulation, body awareness, procrastination, self-kindness, authenticity, deep listening, validation, connection, community, breath work
Transcript
Melanie (00:01.912)
Ha ha ha.
Rick And Mel (00:03.232)
Melanie Briney, welcome to the podcast.
Melanie (00:06.158)
Thanks Rick, how you doing?
Rick And Mel (00:08.97)
I'm a bit fluid. I had the flu over the weekend. Not quite man flu, but like I was functional, even though I rested. But yeah, I'm just got a bit of that going on at the moment.
Melanie (00:22.952)
That's moving house flu.
Rick And Mel (00:26.068)
Yeah, maybe it's the like, let me rest before I have to move house because we're moving this time next week. The removals will have been and gone. So.
Melanie (00:36.121)
It's a lot, isn't it,
Rick And Mel (00:38.902)
Yeah, yeah, and like, it's not my podcast, we kind of, it's been three months that we've known, so we've been chipping away. And sometimes I think it's better to just rip the band-aid off and go, all right, just get it done this week and move.
Melanie (00:53.366)
I know this is the thing, wouldn't it be good if you just buy a house and move in two days later?
Rick And Mel (00:57.751)
Yeah, yeah, let's vibe it and get the excitement of that. But, you know, there's a few things to sort out. So I guess this is my check-in, isn't it? So may as well do it. I'll go first.
Melanie (01:07.959)
Yeah, I think so.
Rick And Mel (01:13.858)
So physically, just feeling a bit fatigued, bit of a sore throat, had a bit of a cough so that, you know those muscles when you cough, those muscles in your stomach get a workout, probably the first time for a while that my muscles have got a workout. And just feel a bit phlegmy and fluid, so hopefully I don't have to have any big coughing fits on this. Mentally feeling excited.
Melanie (01:27.29)
you
Rick And Mel (01:43.651)
and, organized. There's been a bit of logistics with getting the house organized and starting work in the same week. So that's been good. And emotionally, yeah, feeling really connected and loved and supported and, feel like the years started emotionally really well. So that, that's pretty much me. Yeah. It feels, feels good. And I think also,
I'm a little bit anxious. I'm a little bit anxious of doing a good job because I haven't done a podcast for like three weeks and this is our first for the year and we've known each other for quite a while. So it's like, just, I want to do a good job. yeah, that's me. It's Rick checking in.
Melanie (02:27.563)
We have.
Melanie (02:34.475)
That's good.
Rick And Mel (02:35.554)
What about you?
Melanie (02:38.737)
It's funny, I think I've been trying to block it out that I'm going to be doing this so that I wouldn't get too anxious and haven't been too anxious today. I've been feeling actually quite good today. I had an early start this morning with a 6.30am client and I can tell you I really didn't want to get out of bed. So was like, can I have a few more hours? What happened to the holiday? So I wouldn't say I feel tired. I feel quite good now. My energy is good today.
Rick And Mel (02:55.669)
Yeah.
Melanie (03:05.703)
I'm a bit nervous, I can feel the nervousness building up in me already but probably in my chest and in my tummy a little bit I can feel you know that tightness you get in your jaw and you're like my god what am I gonna say next? but I do actually feel like I've got off to a good start to the year too and it's kind of nice getting back with my clients you know some of them I haven't seen since before Christmas and
Rick And Mel (03:10.572)
Where is it in your body?
Melanie (03:36.219)
Yeah, had a nice morning this morning reconnecting with some of my people, which is good. My energy is pretty good. I would say definitely is nervousness is the main thing I'm feeling today.
Rick And Mel (03:41.802)
Yep.
Rick And Mel (03:51.148)
Cool. What's behind the nerves?
Melanie (03:55.411)
being seen. But you know, sitting here going, my god, these people are to be listening to me talking about my stuff.
Rick And Mel (03:57.394)
Rick And Mel (04:06.786)
You
Yeah, me too. Me too.
Melanie (04:10.249)
you
Melanie (04:13.619)
Yeah, it's fair enough though really, isn't it? Because we live in a society that kind of encourages us to keep our business to ourselves. But we've been practicing a lot of not doing that.
Rick And Mel (04:22.37)
Yeah, put a mask on.
Rick And Mel (04:28.982)
We have, we?
Melanie (04:30.211)
We have.
Rick And Mel (04:32.16)
So we have known each other for a while. Where did we first meet?
Melanie (04:37.192)
Well, I reached out to you, think I was thinking back about this the other day, I reached out to you, I reckon it was around 2011.
Rick And Mel (04:45.75)
Traces.
Melanie (04:47.015)
I know and I because I qualified as a PT around 2010 2009 I think it was actually and then we moved from Sydney to Wollongong and as a completely new PT I just I went to try and work for a business but they didn't treat me very well and they expected me to do lots of
Rick And Mel (04:48.706)
Ha
Melanie (05:11.782)
the legwork regarding getting in clients and I'm thinking why am I doing all the legwork to getting clients for you and I can work for myself. So literally as a brand new PT I decided to start working for myself and as you can imagine I had no business skills, no understanding of the industry and here I am trying to run group fitness with like two people turning up, nobody paying me and I was like...
Rick And Mel (05:32.629)
Yeah.
Melanie (05:36.368)
but I really need some help with some business stuff and I did some searching and I think at the time you're running the business PT business in a box. Is that what it was called? Anyway, I downloaded like this ebook that you that you were selling at the time and it was to help small businesses understand how to get more consistent income coming in, which was one of the biggest pain points for me in my
Rick And Mel (05:45.014)
Such a bad name.
Melanie (06:04.482)
new business at the time and I learned so much from that ebook and you helped me to write my first agreement for clients which you know laid out what I was expected to do what they were expected to do and so yeah it was brilliant and I started putting clients onto you know ongoing payments and it was a huge turnaround for my tiny little business. Yeah.
Rick And Mel (06:28.77)
Yeah, cool. Yeah, I guess there's some people on this podcast that listen that, I haven't really spoken about that chapter of my life much. So yeah, was the PT, the business coaching in the fitness industry was, I think it was about a six or seven or eight year little stint. And, for me, it was similar to you. Like I had.
Melanie (06:38.854)
Here we go.
Rick And Mel (06:54.563)
a career in the fitness industry and I was just getting burnt out with it. And I love the business side maybe more than the fitness side. And so that's kind of just how I kind of redirected and fell into that. But 2011, what else was going on in your world in 2011? Where were you? Who was, you grew, what was going on?
Melanie (07:15.919)
So I had moved into, I think it was around, I'm getting confused with the dates, but it was sometime I think around 2010-ish that my ex-husband said to me, look, me and my partner, we'd really like to move to Wollongong, we were wondering how you'd feel about moving down there. And I felt at that time it was probably good decision for the kids. I think my daughter was about nine years old and my son would have been 13.
And we're like, I think this will be a good decision and be good for the kids, more space, because we're in the inner west in Sydney at the time and in a tiny little property with no garden. And I was starting to get, you know, concerned about the quality of life for my kids. So I moved down there with my then partner. And so, yeah, it was like this completely new start in a completely new town where I knew absolutely nobody. that was, yeah, I decided to start working for myself.
Rick And Mel (08:15.03)
Yeah, what a great time to start a new business without any networks.
Melanie (08:15.877)
I had no idea of how difficult it would be and how emotionally challenging that would actually be too.
Rick And Mel (08:25.89)
Alright.
Rick And Mel (08:31.936)
How was it emotionally challenging?
Melanie (08:33.903)
Well, because I have a really strong fear of being seen and a really strong, well, like especially, it's not so much now, but in the past, a really strong fear of being seen and a really strong fear of being wrong and a really strong fear of being perceived as being wrong by other people. So it was really, really tough starting a business.
Rick And Mel (08:57.539)
Hell yes, those three things combine to be a wicked combo.
Melanie (09:02.148)
Yeah, I mean, look, I've worked for myself plenty before. I had a cleaning business before that, but you're not really seen and heard in the same way as a cleaner as you are as a PT.
Rick And Mel (09:12.3)
yeah. Cool. And then we recently, we kind of had some time apart and then we recently started hanging out again.
Melanie (09:25.516)
We did, it was interesting because all you disappeared after I'd been working with you and yeah, you disappeared off social media. like, I don't know, I used to go looking for you on social media thinking what the hell happened to Rick? And then one day, I had been continually looking for you on social media over the years because I continued to work in the industry and
Rick And Mel (09:29.506)
I'm pretty good at that.
Melanie (09:53.442)
you know, as much as we hate the algorithm, the algorithm probably is what helped me to reconnect with you again when suddenly you popped up and went, ta-da, here I am. Yeah, I'm back. But I think I'm not sure what year that was actually.
Rick And Mel (10:03.714)
I'm back!
Rick And Mel (10:11.946)
I reckon it was about three years ago.
Melanie (10:14.148)
Hmm. Yeah, and then I noticed you were coaching. And then that piqued my interest in a different way, because I've changed an awful lot and gone through a lot of things since 2010-ish.
Rick And Mel (10:27.458)
What's changed since then?
Melanie (10:29.412)
So.
Melanie (10:32.714)
I've been in and out of the fitness industry, so I got burned out. It's just pretty common as a PT, especially solo business owner. And in fact, I think a lot of PTs who work for other people too, because it's shit pay, shit hours. And really, it's only a small number of your clients that really appreciate the hard work that you put in. See, I got really burned out and I went back and studied graphic design.
You
Rick And Mel (11:04.354)
Give me a desktop, please.
Melanie (11:06.689)
But no, don't give me a desk job because it ruins your body.
Melanie (11:13.696)
Yeah, so I don't know what you'd been doing in that time. Did you really disappear or was that just by imagination?
Rick And Mel (11:21.57)
Well, I stopped doing the business coaching and then I opened up the CrossFit gym and did that for five or six years. And then my epilepsy got a bit out of control. So I ended up going down for brain surgery and had brain surgery. And then that started all the health stuff, sold the business, did a couple of years of recovery and then kind of re-educated myself in the mental emotional.
coaching and now therapy stuff. So that's kind of, it was a very conscious disappearance. I was talking to someone about this morning, like my natural state is not to be posting stuff publicly. my body doesn't love it. And I think I realised probably only in last couple of years that...
Melanie (11:58.274)
Fair enough.
Rick And Mel (12:18.024)
It was more about getting validation than it was about, you know, any sort of business strategy or anything like that. So there was a, there was a fair bit of unconscious stuff that was happening underneath and my body loved not doing it. Like I just felt way more at peace. and that's similar to what you talking about before about like the whole fear of being seen thing. It was like, here's what I'm putting out, seen as valuable. Am I getting validated from other people?
If it's not, does that mean I'm a bad person? So there was just like, and I'm sure most people have got a version of this, but for me it was pretty black and white. like, I'm just off. just, I don't need it. I don't want it. I like connecting with humans in real life. So, and especially when I was unwell, like I just didn't, didn't want to be, you know, public. And that kind of, that kind of.
Melanie (13:10.08)
enough too.
Rick And Mel (13:15.404)
dog's about to pull the hole.
I've got my dog here because he gets grumpy if he's not in the room like he gets the shits and I've got an elaborate setup with wires and everything into the laptop and he was about to put one paw over it and then chose not to so
Melanie (13:19.871)
You
Melanie (13:30.975)
Like, eh-eh.
Rick And Mel (13:34.207)
Rocky. But in saying that, the... After I recovered a little bit, the first thing I did, which was the easiest thing to do, was to get back on Instagram and just go, hi, proof of life, not dead. This is kind of roughly what's been happening. Hi, everyone. And not that everyone, like, I don't have many followers or anything, but that was kind of the first step.
but one of the first steps back into the world again. you know, the social media stuff's played a bit of a role.
Melanie (14:09.502)
We can't really get away from it, can we? It's like, how do you find all those people that used to connect with you? I mean, the old fashioned way, we used to have a telephone book. I don't have a telephone book anymore, do you?
Rick And Mel (14:15.617)
Yeah.
Rick And Mel (14:22.954)
No, and it's funny because like I've recently, I've friended a few people from my year in high school. And now the algorithm is like flicking old classmates at me left, right and I'm just like, let's have a look at what they're going in their life. So yeah, it's an interesting way now how it's all done, how it can connect us. I just have a big part of me that loves being a fucking hermit.
Melanie (14:35.921)
Ha ha ha!
Rick And Mel (14:52.576)
and not talking to anyone.
Melanie (14:55.581)
Yeah, I can understand it. then, you know, if you've got the if you've got that part of you, the not good enough part of you, these days you post on Instagram and you get two likes and you say, my God, my world's over.
Rick And Mel (15:08.29)
confirmed I'm not good enough. Yeah, so that was kind of my little story around the disappearance and I'll probably do it again in the future like even now I'm happy to put podcast stuff up on social media but I really put anything else up so that seems to be a happy medium at the moment.
Melanie (15:29.764)
I know, I mean no pressure but I do like your content when you put it up there.
It has great value in the world.
Rick And Mel (15:38.627)
Thank you. It's strange to hear that, because it's like, we're so critical. I'm so critical of myself. it's, it's, hmm, it's good to hear that. Thank you. So what second time around, what drew you back to working together again?
Melanie (15:50.902)
You're welcome.
Melanie (16:04.802)
I was just having some challenges in my fitness business again. cause 20, at the end of 2020 in the middle of that big space that we all had where we were allowed to be free for a little while during COVID, we moved, we moved from Sydney to Newcastle to be closer to Brad's family, which meant once again, for me, starting all over again in a business. Now I had
Rick And Mel (16:19.658)
I'm lost right now.
Rick And Mel (16:27.447)
Mm-hmm.
Melanie (16:34.07)
Like I said, I've taken a break from PT because I got burned out. But I've been playing around with a bit of PT before COVID, working in gyms. I can tell you something, gyms pay personal trainers appallingly. It's going to make that public. And it's an absolute embarrassment. And most of the industry should be ashamed of themselves the way that they pay such important people in society. But anyway, that's my rant. So after working for a
Rick And Mel (16:47.778)
Yeah, they do.
Melanie (17:02.551)
Couple of businesses in Sydney that honestly, the pay was just shit. And when I came up here, I was like, I am not working for somebody else. I'm going to start up on my own. But even though I was better at business, I wasn't better at people. And all of those insecurities that I previously upset the apple cart were right there. And believe me, when you work with people, as everybody knows, you're working with people, you've got to do a lot of work on yourself because
it's going to press your buttons and there was a lot of stuff pressing my buttons and I didn't feel like was coping emotionally in my business and I really, really needed some support.
Rick And Mel (17:43.395)
Yeah, it's pretty cool, isn't it? sometimes, well, I guess my background and experience was originally like fitness and then business and now kind of more mental emotional, but it's so interesting to look back and see how much of an impact your mental emotional world has on your business world, on your success, on your willingness to push and be, you know, front and centre.
Melanie (17:44.865)
Yeah.
Melanie (18:13.078)
Yep, absolutely. But it was a great day that day I decided to reach out and you go, I'm doing this now, more of this. And I went, okay, that's what I need then. If you're not doing so much of the business coaching and you're doing the emotional coaching, the reason I found you again is because that's what I need.
Rick And Mel (18:32.172)
Yeah, yeah. And...
Rick And Mel (18:40.066)
I'm not sure of the question. The question I want to know is, what have you learned about yourself? What's changed? We're just starting 2025. What have you learned about yourself in the last two or three years?
Rick And Mel (18:59.031)
Ha ha ha!
Melanie (18:59.605)
That's a big question.
god, I don't even know where to start answering that to be honest. I have learned that I am probably at heart a people pleaser.
Rick And Mel (19:17.814)
Mm-hmm.
Melanie (19:19.19)
and extremely critical of myself have extremely high expectations of myself that i'm probably on top of being a people pleaser i do my tendencies to be a what do call it when you like to save people yep i'm a rescuer
Rick And Mel (19:42.752)
Rescuer.
Melanie (19:48.865)
And I'm also an extremely intuitive and caring and compassionate person that really wants to make a difference in the world.
Rick And Mel (19:57.846)
Mm.
Rick And Mel (20:03.276)
Yeah. And I think that's where the, gray area or the overlap or the fuzziness comes in because there's like what we can perceive to be some challenging characteristics of like rescuing and people pleasing. But then the other side of that is just this beautiful, caring nature and the real innate desire to help other humans. And it's like what, what I've seen with you is just like untangling this, this ball of wool that's been tangled.
to be able to see which parts serve you and which parts don't serve you and how that works. So, ready, go.
Melanie (20:39.477)
Yeah, I think to, no it's okay. I think the best thing has been, for me, is to acknowledge those parts of myself and to actually honor them and to go, it's okay, because there's two sides to this and that part of me is also this part of me and it's like, can I be more accepting of those parts of me that were maybe dysfunctional in some ways but allowed me to function.
based on all of my life experience on the foundation of my life.
Rick And Mel (21:12.162)
Well said.
It's really well said. Let's play around with that. Let's go into that a little bit more. Maybe we'll just start with like the people pleasing part because I think it's really good conversation to have around what you mentioned then about there's two sides to it. So.
Melanie (21:15.532)
Thank
Rick And Mel (21:36.982)
Let's explore those two sides for you. How do you benefit from being a people pleaser? Or how did you?
Melanie (21:43.241)
Yeah, I probably would not have been able to answer this in the past, but now I would say that by being a people pleaser, it definitely helped me to feel safe and secure in the world when I didn't feel safe and secure in the world. Because, yeah, because validation from other people, so by being able to be accepted and acknowledged by other people.
Rick And Mel (21:57.634)
Come on.
Melanie (22:07.474)
It gave me that feeling of being safe, that feeling of being connected, that feeling of being important, of being needed.
Rick And Mel (22:14.594)
Mmm.
And then what, so obviously there's those feelings that have, super powerful and they're super strong.
How did chasing those feelings impact your behavior? Like how did that start showing up in the people pleasing arena? What did it look like on the practical level?
Melanie (22:38.132)
So when you're running, I think if I can talk to it from running a business, it meant that I felt like I was compromising myself and not speaking up when I should have spoken up. Allowing certain clients with big personalities to kind of like have control over a situation that really me as the business owner and the trainer should have had not control over, but it should have been not should either because I hate that word, but could have.
managed better, if I had felt like I didn't have to keep everyone happy.
Rick And Mel (23:14.658)
Yeah, pause there.
Melanie (23:16.945)
Mm.
Rick And Mel (23:19.062)
Such a powerful end to a sentence if I felt like I didn't have to keep everyone happy. Yeah.
Melanie (23:24.002)
mmmm because I wasn't happy because I wasn't happy and inside my body it felt like hell horribleness and sticky and awful and I was coming home thinking I can't continue to function like this it's not working
Rick And Mel (23:46.402)
Hmm. What was the light side of the people pleasing for you? What were some of the positive consequences of it?
Melanie (23:57.909)
I didn't have to face up to really difficult conversations. Yeah, because, ooooh, you know how hard it is when you've got to say something that you know a person is not going to like.
Rick And Mel (24:02.274)
Well said.
Rick And Mel (24:14.198)
Yeah, you've got to avoid the conflict, Yep. What does conflict represent to you?
Melanie (24:16.497)
you
Melanie (24:21.901)
It's very uncomfortable and again because for me it tends to come back to that feeling of rejection. That feeling like I'm going to have nobody on my side, I'm going to be out on my own, that nobody's going to like me, nobody's going to want to work with me, I won't have a job, I'm not good enough, my god the world is going to end.
Rick And Mel (24:44.962)
So are these stories that are rolling around your head as you're functioning in your business?
Melanie (24:50.318)
Well, they were, yeah. I mean, it's not happening now.
Rick And Mel (24:51.958)
Yeah. Yeah. So we're kind of talking like two or three years ago. Yeah. Yeah.
Melanie (24:56.783)
Yeah.
Rick And Mel (25:00.8)
Yeah, and I think we caught up last week and we were chatting about that idea of how, because what I see with this is the role that shame plays in this. And we were kind of talking about that the other week around these actions, these people pleasing actions, these avoiding conflict actions are really our behaviors to avoid experiencing shame, the shame of being
Melanie (25:11.45)
Mm.
Rick And Mel (25:30.21)
proven that I'm not enough, I'm not lovable, I'm not worthy. And the shame associated with that, like the actual feeling of it. So we run these behaviors and we run these patterns so ferociously in order to prove that we're the opposite of what our shame's telling us.
Melanie (25:39.501)
Yeah.
Melanie (25:51.544)
Yeah.
Rick And Mel (25:53.527)
Yeah.
Melanie (25:59.574)
It's not fun. It's not fun living in that space because I mean felt like I was destroying myself.
Rick And Mel (26:07.872)
Yeah, and it's kind of the opposite of what you said before around like accepting the reality of the situation. It's the direct opposite of that.
And it's interesting because the idea of those shame stories that you're not good enough, those things that roll around most people's head at some stage, they only operate in isolation, they operate in silence, in your head, in our heads. But then when we have these conversations and we get to speak to these parts of us that exist but don't really see the light of day very often,
It's really hard for them to have as much power over us.
Melanie (26:51.916)
100 % absolutely.
Rick And Mel (26:54.967)
So what does that look like for you? What does the shining more of a light of it look like for you on a practical level?
Melanie (27:04.448)
Well, I think the great thing with this work that we've been doing together is being able to notice the stories. And so noticing that when you go into story, when the thoughts in your head and the feelings in your body don't feel very nice, it's a story. And that story...
Rick And Mel (27:14.178)
Hmm.
Melanie (27:30.251)
It's an opportunity to stop and really have a look at what's going on. Check in, do a bit of a body check in. And actually one thing I've been doing a lot of is doing a body check in and asking my body where this started. Where in my life did this begin?
Rick And Mel (27:38.722)
Mm-hmm.
Melanie (27:49.979)
Is it something that's happening in the moment or is it something from a long time ago? Sometimes in the morning when I wake up early and I've got those feelings in the body, it's a great time for me to do that, check in and actually ask my body, what do you want me to know?
Rick And Mel (28:07.458)
Hmm. What sort of answers are you getting from that?
Melanie (28:09.193)
What?
Sometimes it will take me back to a time in my life where there were things happening and I can understand like the fear that was in my body at the time, you know, being a younger person, perhaps not having the support system that I needed. And it helps me to be kinder to that part of myself. Sometimes I cry, sometimes because there's emotions there that need to be, that need to come up and be worked through. Sometimes...
It's just even the sensations or pains in my body that I can allow instead of trying to push them down.
Rick And Mel (28:47.843)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm thinking, biggest gift in all of that is the ability, the growing ability of you to not remain in the unconscious. You know, if there's something big, a big feeling, is this like, even just asking the question, is this a now thing or is this a past thing? Like, is this pushing on a bruise from the past or is this a valid reaction to my circumstances in the present?
Even just asking the question goes a fucking long way to that thing of making the unconscious conscious, you know?
Melanie (29:27.243)
Absolutely, 100%. And I even put up a post yesterday where I was talking about neck ache because my neck has been killing me for the last few days. And I'm like, there's no actual physical reason why my neck is hurting. I like, so I had stopped and sat down and I was like, what's actually going on here? And just had a moment where I allowed myself to be present to what was going on in my body. And then, you know, there were tears because there's emotional stuff going on and I had to acknowledge that it's
bigger than I want to deal with. And it's putting a lot of pressure onto my system and it's like, okay. And I think one of the things that's been great as well working with you is like you helped me to understand the importance of having a support system.
So once upon a time, not only would I have been overwhelmed with the feelings and then the story start, but I felt like I couldn't reach out to anybody. Whereas now I'm like, okay, I've got my own resources so I can take some time to just stop and notice and allow the feelings to be there. And then after that, if I feel like there's still more going on, I'm giving myself permission to connect with somebody else.
for the support from someone else, which I was just so shit at my whole life. It just felt honestly like I just had to do everything myself.
Rick And Mel (30:49.495)
Yeah, yeah. And that's the thing, coming back to that shame operates in isolation or in silence, like that step of resourcing self. So like the self support, what do I need? And then the next step of sharing a part of you with another human, is that that's practical step of not letting your shame operate in silence.
Melanie (30:54.857)
Mm.
Rick And Mel (31:16.502)
And it's the courage that it takes to go, this is what's happening for me. I don't need to fix it. I don't need you to fix it, but I just want to share it. Yeah.
Melanie (31:23.963)
Yeah, exactly. It's so true and actually in fact as well because I reached out for a bit of extra support from my partner yesterday and I once upon a time I would have always shared through story, through the experience, through that emotional intensity, know, this happened and this person said this and then I said that, you know, that story but now I'm able to go, the story's just the story, what's
Rick And Mel (31:47.457)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Melanie (31:52.563)
feeling behind it and then connect I connected with him and said to him this is how I'm feeling and I need to share it because I can't carry this on my own and for me even in that moment just even saying that to him I was like man this feels so different this and then I could feel like the emotions having the ability to come up and move through and I was like what a difference
Rick And Mel (32:19.586)
What did your body feel like after that?
Melanie (32:22.024)
It felt a sense of relief and lightness and it actually was a really nice moment of connection with my partner because I also took the pressure off him to solve the problem.
Rick And Mel (32:34.082)
So in that, because I'm super interested in the context of that, not the detail, but do you have an agreement with your partner that he doesn't fix you or do you bring it up explicitly before you say how you're going to feel or how does it work with you guys with that?
Melanie (32:51.08)
Look, there have been conversations in the past because I can see that previously maybe I've laid a lot of my emotional stuff onto him for him to fix and so it hasn't sat well. And when I started that conversation yesterday, it became evident that maybe an old pattern was going to emerge where he felt like I wanted him to be the fixer. And so we had a little conversation about
the fact that I didn't need him to solve the problem. Just needed somebody to listen and hold space, really.
Rick And Mel (33:26.722)
It can be simple, can't it? Like that pretext to the conversation is what I call setting context. It's like creating the field conditions for the conversation that you need, the support that you need. And I love it, I really love it. And it's funny, like in my relationship with Joe, we have a default agreement of like,
Melanie (33:28.419)
Yeah.
Melanie (33:35.367)
Mm.
Rick And Mel (33:56.183)
We don't need to be fracked. So fixing, rescuing, advice, caretaking, we don't need to be fracked. But...
Melanie (34:01.338)
Ha ha.
Rick And Mel (34:07.742)
If we do, ask for it, like, can you give me some advice on this because I'm really stuck or whatever it is. Like it's, have to be explicit with that. And the same as what you're talking about for us, it gives us permission to express without the power dynamic, I guess, of the expectation there's going to be some fixing or someone needs to take away your power to look after you or there's an obligation or any of that covert stuff that can play out.
Melanie (34:11.207)
you
Rick And Mel (34:35.818)
around the fixing, rescuing kind of stuff. Can you hear my dog? Can you hear my dog? He's dreaming. He's going, ruff, ruff, ruff, ruff, in his dream.
Melanie (34:39.537)
Yeah, that sounds great.
Melanie (34:46.855)
It must be a good one. I think that's a great point that you were just making there though. Sorry to interrupt your dog life dream there. I think actually that's given me food for thought regarding a good conversation to have with my partner because I mean I've definitely matured a lot in my expectations around what my partner should give me in a relationship.
Rick And Mel (34:50.508)
Dog's life, unbelievable.
Rick And Mel (34:58.327)
Yeah.
Melanie (35:17.863)
I've never really thought about sitting down and chatting with him about that, but I think it would be a great conversation.
Rick And Mel (35:26.274)
Yeah, and it might, you you get to set your own rules. So whatever you guys both feel is a good fit, you know, who knows? But I know I definitely don't like being rescued because I like to think that I can do it all myself. And I also know that there's an unconscious part of me that automatically goes into rescuing others that has in the past, he's a little bit less active now. So I think, um,
Melanie (35:28.934)
Yeah.
Melanie (35:34.011)
Melanie (35:42.246)
Fair enough.
Rick And Mel (35:56.525)
For me, it's kind of important to be on both sides of the receiver and the giver to just be like, can we have a resonance but without being seen or fixed or rescued?
Melanie (36:12.524)
and it feels it's a much more balanced relationship and also it feels it's good for the relationship when you can turn to your partner ask for support in the right way
Rick And Mel (36:23.084)
Yeah, yeah. And there's also a little bit of something in the fact that you can trust your partner that they'll get to where they need to go. You know, like they're not one of your children. No, and that's really interesting. Like how many people I speak to and say, my husband's like my fourth child or vice versa. So it's just interesting to see like.
Melanie (36:35.386)
Yeah.
Rick And Mel (36:48.8)
the power dynamics that come with rescuing that we don't even know about, like what we're taking away from the other person.
Melanie (36:55.717)
Yeah, I think as mothers, you know, it can be quite challenging sometimes, but you don't really want to mother your partner. It really doesn't create a healthy relationship, does it? I like that I could contribute that to the moment. Yeah.
Rick And Mel (37:05.57)
That's the biggest understatement of the year so far.
There you go. That's winning part of the year so well. But it's so true and it's so simple because we get something from it. I mean, that's the awareness piece is like, what am I actually getting from it? And I don't know if that's super healthy. What can I do about it?
So things I know about you, in the category of things I know about you is that over the last 12 months, you've moved your business a little bit to move away from PT and to be more focused into your passion of breath work. Can you tell me a little bit about that transition?
Melanie (37:58.743)
Yeah, yeah, that's that started at the job because I started working with you again at the end of 2022. And at the end of 22, it was that period of time in my business where I was like, this is not working and what can I do? And I knew that I needed some big shifts. I'd spent quite a long period of 2022 feeling completely shut down.
disconnected from myself, disconnected from life and I felt like I needed a good few kicks off the butt. Something like something big and powerful and like and change in energy and so obviously I started working with you but then at the beginning of 23 I went to a breathwork and ice bath event and at the end of that I was like oh my god where has this been
Rick And Mel (38:29.89)
you
Melanie (38:51.042)
Why have I not known? Well, I knew about it because in 2020 I read the Breathe book by James Nestor and I started taping my mouth at night in 2020 and I'm still doing it now. So I'm like, this stuff's good. And learn some Bottego breathing techniques, which would have helped me with my anxiety in inverted commas.
But when I did the breathwork, an ice bath event, was like, this is fucking awesome. Where's this been all my life? there's something more I want in this. And I signed up that night to do the breathwork instructor training. Yeah.
Rick And Mel (39:24.386)
Can I pause you there? What was it about that event that like, what was the experience that really changed things for you?
Melanie (39:35.458)
Well, it gave me a feeling of being alive. Now after having a lot of like that feeling of being shut down and dead in my body, I felt a little liveness in myself that I hadn't experienced in quite some time. An energy, a movement of energy within my body, a change in my state, I suppose you would call it. So instead of feeling like shut down, I felt that
Rick And Mel (39:39.874)
Hmm.
Melanie (40:03.776)
the energy of play and the energy of that activation state but in a positive way so instead of feeling down like that complete shutdown or super anxious which is my polars one or the other I felt I felt that energy in my body and aliveness but it felt in a really positive way and I was like okay this is the beginning of something I want a bit more of
Rick And Mel (40:17.27)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Melanie (40:29.747)
And I signed up for the instructor training not necessarily because I wanted to become a breathwork instructor, but because I wanted more of that feeling.
And it's like, want to know what this is, what's going on, how does this happen? What's happening here? What happened to my body and mind? And it was great. mean, the breathwork instructor training was absolutely full on. Full on intense in every single conceivable way.
Rick And Mel (40:48.416)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Melanie (41:05.375)
And I came away with the good and the bad. know, these are the things that I think are awesome about breathwork and these are the things that I can see are problematic about breathwork. And of course, then you go on and you learn heaps more things. Well, I wanted to share it with people. I wanted to, for other people to experience what I'd experienced.
And yeah, it's been an interesting journey because I've since been over to the US and studied breathwork with Jessie Kummer from the language of breath because I was looking for a different perspective on what I'd previously learned because like I said, you know, there's the good and the bad with breathwork and some things I've gone. Yes, some the some things I fully agreed with and some things were like just left me not feeling comfortable in my own body.
Rick And Mel (41:44.258)
Can we go there?
Rick And Mel (41:53.09)
Can we go there? Can we talk about that?
Melanie (41:55.552)
Can you start the conversation and get it going?
Rick And Mel (42:01.954)
I have a version of this and I think it's not specifically around breath work, it's...
Melanie (42:03.857)
Yeah.
Rick And Mel (42:09.09)
This is a can of worms, but let me just open it slowly. I'll open the lid slowly and peek inside. Stepping into this more mental emotional world over the last five years, what I've learned about myself or what I've learned about the industry as it becomes bigger and all the rest of it.
Melanie (42:11.232)
Yeah, sounds good.
Rick And Mel (42:34.058)
is that
Rick And Mel (42:38.147)
How do I put this? What I struggled with the most was watching people learn some tricks and those tricks would open up people in a way that they hadn't been opened up before and they didn't have the tools, the strength, the experience, the knowledge to put those people back together. And that's broad generalization and it's not specific to breathwork but I think it's characteristic of some of the different types of breathwork.
Melanie (42:56.693)
Hmm.
Rick And Mel (43:07.33)
So yeah, I think generally in me, it's probably part of the reason why I'm studying and doing a masters. So I can feel competent if I'm potentially creating a space where people open up into some really big things, that I have the ability to hold that and to be able to put them back together so they can leave my therapy room and go about their day. And what I was seeing,
were some people wielding some sharp knives that they'd just learned to hold and not be able to put the pieces back together and not be a very favorable outcome. So that was kind of, that's kind of my little, that was in a coaching capacity, but it was also dripped out into breath work and a few other things where it was just being wielded. The new skills were being wielded without the appropriate trauma-informed response to it.
Melanie (44:01.885)
Yeah, it's really interesting and actually that trauma-informed perspective is like, you you can go and do like a seven hour course in being a trauma-informed therapist, but it's, you know, so much to learn to be truly trauma-informed. And I think it takes a lot of time, a huge amount of time to be good at that. But from a breathwork point of view,
I agree with you and there were times after I trained as a breath worker where I was like, I don't feel 100 % comfortable taking people this deep in a breath work session. Because big stuff can come up. Lots of big stuff and then what happens at the end of the session? So you've just taken 20 people through a really intense session and five of them are crying in the corner. I mean, is that a good outcome?
Rick And Mel (44:54.763)
I'm laughing, but it's not funny. I'm just laughing because it's true.
Melanie (45:00.824)
Yeah, mean, they're not really crying in the corner, but you know what I mean? You've got five people in a room of maybe like 25 people and like one of them is completely losing their shit. And you're like, what happened? I used to think, you if I was supporting a breath work session and that was happening, I'm just gonna say it doesn't happen in my sessions because I don't tell you people that deep because I don't think it's necessary to unload everything in one session.
Rick And Mel (45:01.633)
one
Rick And Mel (45:08.78)
Yeah.
Melanie (45:28.408)
And in fact, is it necessary to unload huge amounts of your emotional baggage in a breathwork workshop of 25 people? Is it the safest, most supportive, nurturing space for you to do that?
Rick And Mel (45:42.146)
I'm sure there's some breath work facilitators out there that are like we're triggering the shit out of. But I agree. Yeah.
Melanie (45:47.258)
potentially. Well look, you know something, one thing I've learned as I've been in this industry is the people that I attract are not going to be the people that want that kind of release in a session. They're going to go to somebody else and that's okay. I attract a different type of audience. I attract people, in fact, a lot of the women that come and do my sessions are women who've experienced that and didn't feel safe and they come to work with me because I give them permission to not go there if they don't want to go there.
It's like they have full control over a situation.
Rick And Mel (46:14.775)
Yeah.
And this, I, what the, one of the reasons I brought this up, cause I think it's a beautiful differentiation around being authentic to what's real for you. And then for what's real for you, being able to do that in your practice and your facilitation. And what I'm hearing is it's attracting people similar to you that have either heard of that experience or had that experience that don't want it again. That's the beauty of like, just not following blindly. I think it's really cool.
Melanie (46:40.686)
Yeah.
Melanie (46:47.354)
Yeah, well it's felt much more authentic to myself because I had really good experiences with really intense breast work but I had some not so good ones too and it's like at the end of it you go home you're like, oh my god what just happened to me I feel like I've been run over by a bus or something and that can last for days as well and I think what I see sometimes is a lot of people who have a lot of stuff going on that really
They want to let it go. They want it to come out and they want to release it because it's so uncomfortable and unbearable. it's like, then what do you do? And I know that, and I do know, and I'm not denying the positive benefits of emotional release because you can feel really amazing. But I do feel that mostly a lot of the people who really want the big support and the big release probably should be doing the work in conjunction with the therapist.
Rick And Mel (47:26.636)
Yeah.
Rick And Mel (47:36.192)
Yeah, definitely. 100%.
Rick And Mel (47:46.56)
Yeah, before and after, like it's that integration part.
Melanie (47:48.271)
Yeah.
Rick And Mel (47:51.618)
What do I do with this thing that I've just unboxed?
Melanie (47:57.082)
Yeah.
Rick And Mel (48:00.227)
So how does that shape your practice? How does that shape what you offer to the world?
Melanie (48:00.346)
100%.
Melanie (48:05.037)
Well, it's, it took me down this huge rabbit hole learning about the nervous system and from a polyvagal theory, which has been, it's just on top of the work that we do and the breath work, learning about how my nervous system works and understanding how to support people from a healthy nervous system perspective or not healthy nervous system perspective. That's not the right way to say it from a
how the nervous system functions and why it functions that way from an evolutionary standpoint and then how we can honor how the nervous system works and how we can use the nervous system where it's at to guide the work that we're doing.
Rick And Mel (48:47.714)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and this is...
Like nervous system work is becoming all the rage now, isn't it? Like it's becoming the next thing, which I'm kind of stoked about. But if you were to put that one term into a simple frame and a simple explanation, what would it sound like for someone who's like, I've heard nervous system regulation, but I haven't really got my head around it. Like what would it sound like for you if you were telling someone new?
Melanie (49:18.392)
about how the nervous system works or how it can benefit the nervous system.
Rick And Mel (49:23.087)
Maybe just like the really basics of like how their nervous system works.
Melanie (49:28.0)
Well, I like to think of it because we're talking about the autonomic nervous system. So the part of the nervous system that automatically runs your heart, your breathing, your digestion, all the things that happen in your body automatically. They are sending information to your brain 24 seven so that your brain can make decisions how to respond in the world. But
We're also not only sensing what's going on inside our own body, the nervous system is picking up on what's going on around in our environment. And in fact, our nervous system notices what's going on before we do logically and rationally. And then it's sending information to the brain, which can maybe make you feel anxious. Why do I feel anxious? When we say feel anxious for a reason, because it's a felt.
sensation in the body first before it becomes a rational thought in the mind. And so if we don't understand how to connect with those internal processes, then we're never going to really understand why we think the way that we do or act the way that we do. And I hope that made sense. It can be challenging sometimes to explain that.
Rick And Mel (50:43.636)
What's an example, just a really practical example from your life, like the different states that you find yourself in and what's the best course of action? Like for example, I know that you've got some good freeze. Your freeze is default setting in some capacities for you.
Melanie (51:01.875)
Yeah, is definitely. And it's noticing it. So the first thing is learning to be able to connect with the internal processes in your body so that you can even know which state you're in. Because if you're using the logical mind to make a decision about what state you're in, it's not necessarily going to be correct. So how does your body feel is the first place to start.
And then when you can notice how your body feels, then you can relate that to the different nervous system states. So sympathetic and the two parts of the parasympathetic. So the ventral vagal, so that's the social engagement part. And then the dorsal vagal, which is shut down. it's sad. Look, it sounds complicated and it's not really layman's terms using those terms, but you can think of yourself in a hot state over activated in a cold state under activated or in a just right state.
What states your body in? And then what tools can you use to help your body come back to a state of balance, to feeling just right?
Rick And Mel (51:56.566)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rick And Mel (52:04.289)
Mmm.
And I kind of work on, I have a very basic understanding of the nervous system, enough to know when to use it and when to not fight against it. So if I've got a client that's super emotional, super activated, super shut down, there's no value in that, how do we get ourselves out of this conversation? It's like, can we sit in this experience and...
build our awareness of this state with the goal to be before we do anything outside in our world, our goal just be to get from this shut down state to just a little bit more grounded? And then from the ground to place, can we then talk about what is the practical steps to move forward? Because I think the older version of me was like in front of people in a free state and really emotional.
Okay, what are we gonna do about it? And it's just the wrong time. Like it's literally the wrong state for the system to engage anything practical.
Melanie (53:14.556)
Yeah, 100%. And in fact, that was great learning for me was learning about the dorsal vagal state, which is that freeze shut down or the cold state as it's sometimes referred to as. And like you're saying, if a person's in that state and they've been there for a long time, trying to do too much is just going to overwhelm them. And we have to move into sympathetic before we can come back into that ventral vagal.
Rick And Mel (53:38.7)
Hmm.
Melanie (53:40.303)
you know, the green zone, the zone of feeling just right, the nervous system has to go into sympathetic first. So if we push somebody who's in that cold shutdown state too quickly, they're going to go way up into sympathetic and that's not going to be good too because a lot of us are moving between those two states too much anyway. Shut down, overwhelm, shut down, overwhelm. And we're kind of like our window of tolerance is so small that we're not able to stay in that space. So it's like, how can we?
Rick And Mel (53:59.671)
Yeah, yeah.
Melanie (54:10.437)
gently, first of all help a person to identify what state they're in and then gently give them tools to guide them just gently out of that like you're exactly like what you were saying.
Rick And Mel (54:22.988)
Hmm. And I think that's where the breath is really powerful. and that's what I love about the breath work stuff is not the, the big high energetic, big, you know, heart opening stuff, like the ancestral stuff. It's the inner child stuff. It's more of like, how, what state are we in and can we, have enough awareness to bring a breath that's going to get me in the state that I need to be in.
So if it's activation, so do I need to be a little bit more activated or is it to come down back to the middle? Is it like, do I need the calming breath? I feel like that's a really fucking good tool just as a basic level for all humans.
Melanie (55:06.189)
Yeah, it's, look, breath can be really powerful. I do think it's important to say though, with breath work, that it can be triggering for some people. Even, you know, some of my clients have come into a session and go, I don't really want to do the fast breath. It makes me anxious. And I always explain at the beginning of a session that just as much as fast breathing can make you feel anxious, so can slow breathing.
And so I think it's really important to help a person to understand that if they try to do extended exhales and they feel anxious to acknowledge that and say, okay, this isn't right for me at this point in time. So a simple breathing technique like one-to-one breathing, so five seconds in, five seconds out can be really balancing whether you're in the cold state or the hot state. But it's ultimately being able to
Tune into your own body and recognise how your body responds to the particular breathwork technique that you're choosing.
Rick And Mel (56:06.71)
Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? And then you get power over the tools, then you get to be, you know, what do I need at the right time?
Melanie (56:08.089)
Yeah.
Melanie (56:13.846)
Yeah, and then it's not like, so this is the breathwork technique to help you go to sleep. And it's like, well, maybe for somebody that's upregulating and that doesn't help them to sleep at all. But there are some basic rules with breathwork, obviously, and there's some great techniques that you can use. Say you're feeling a bit shut down and flat during the day and you can use, you know, like what we call the sniff sniff poo where you do...
Rick And Mel (56:24.598)
Yeah.
Rick And Mel (56:42.946)
sniff, sniff poo.
Melanie (56:43.885)
Yeah, you can thank Jesse for that. But if you know how to use it right and you know how to listen to your body in the first place and then you know how to just use it gently and just enough maybe three or four breaths might be enough for you and then you stop and you tune back in and you notice how your body responds. So you're not overstimulating the system just for the sake of not feeling flat.
Rick And Mel (57:10.678)
Yeah, and then it can be a tool in your tool belt around how to change the different states that you're in in order to get where you need to be to be, whether it's grounded or activated or whatever, but you get the freedom to be able to be flexible with those states more by having the right tools.
Melanie (57:28.747)
Yeah, absolutely. And again, and I keep going over this and saying the same thing over and over. But ultimately, if you don't understand, not if you don't understand, if you're not able to stop and connect and listen to your internal processes and start to learn the language of your own body, it's going to be much harder to pick the right tools.
Rick And Mel (57:44.332)
Mm-hmm.
Rick And Mel (57:48.534)
So in that vein, let's check back in. How is your body feeling now compared to when you started?
Melanie (57:50.465)
haha
Melanie (57:57.323)
So if I were to talk from a nervous system point of view, I'm in that ventral vagal and even a little bit of play, so a little bit of sympathetic activation, I feel really good. I feel like really energized and like I've really enjoyed the conversation. So completely different to when I started where at the beginning I was even struggling to connect with the thoughts that I wanted to have because I was a little bit too sympathetic activated. So I feel good.
Rick And Mel (58:23.724)
Yep. Cool to notice, eh? Yeah, my little bit of anxiety about doing a good job is definitely dissolved, because it just is what it is, you know?
Melanie (58:26.504)
Yeah, it is pretty good.
Melanie (58:36.232)
Ha ha.
It's actually one... go on, go on, carry on.
Rick And Mel (58:39.392)
I'm I'm not Joe Rogan, I'm not Joe Rogan. So I don't really have that high expectations.
Melanie (58:44.892)
Well I don't know who Joe Rogan is so you're free from that expectation from me. does he? There you go. I don't even know who he is. How cool is that?
Rick And Mel (58:49.954)
It's got the number one podcast in the world apparently. yeah. I want to bring it back to a human male.
What is the role, what is the role procrastination has in your life?
Melanie (59:11.146)
That's my my freeze buddy, isn't it? Well, it's interesting because that's when I notice when I'm when I get that procrastination thing going on. That's when I noticed that I'm in that that free state where you kind of like shut down, but also got a lot of energy in the system that wants to be expended. And I can't think straight.
Rick And Mel (59:17.868)
Your freeze buddy. Yeah.
Rick And Mel (59:40.706)
Mmm.
Melanie (59:40.968)
And it happens when I feel like what I need to do, the thing that I need to achieve is going to mean that I have to expose myself in some way. Yeah, I have to be seen. Yeah. So say, for example, I need to make a phone call to a client and it means I've got to tell them what my price is.
Rick And Mel (59:55.362)
like you have to be saying.
Melanie (01:00:07.322)
and I can feel it's like an automatic response from my body and it says, that's too dangerous, you can't do that. now you're not going to be able to think straight so that you can't make a logical decision and let's just make sure that you protect yourself and the world can't see you.
Rick And Mel (01:00:15.426)
Mm.
Rick And Mel (01:00:25.878)
So good, such a good system, like so effective. know, covers all the bases, keeps you safe. We've got your back, Mel, it's fine. We'll look after you. You won't have to put you into any of those scary situations.
Melanie (01:00:27.9)
Yeah.
Melanie (01:00:38.894)
Exactly, but man it's frustrating.
Rick And Mel (01:00:42.327)
Mmm.
Melanie (01:00:45.608)
what do I do with that? So then again it comes to being able to notice that that's what's going on and then choosing a tool that I can use that's going to support me to come back to a more regulated state.
Rick And Mel (01:01:01.602)
Yeah, that first part is the hard part, isn't it?
Melanie (01:01:04.048)
Yeah, like tuning in and listening and going, what is actually happening here?
Rick And Mel (01:01:06.614)
Yeah. Like that, that just that little stopping in the awareness piece, like we mentioned it before around like making the unconscious conscious. I'm sure that just sounds like a fluff of words, but really it's just like, it's like shining a light on the river that's flowing underneath us and like what's actually happening. and like you said, with the breath stuff, like you, we can't
do anything with it if we don't take the time to stop and turn the torch on and see what's, what's happening. Because we're, I'll say I as a human have so many default settings around like just a certain thing happens. I react a certain way and I get down the path of unconscious behavior. And then, you know, whether it's an hour or a day later, I'm like, fuck that thing happened again. So it's that.
that ability to have the body awareness, notice what this feeling is and then be able to go, okay, stop procrastinating. mean, freeze, my brain's not working properly. What do I need? So what do you need in that sort of situation?
Melanie (01:02:25.274)
Look, I do find in a situation like that getting up and moving, going and doing some exercise, but even just changing my environment and doing something mundane like putting out the washing.
Rick And Mel (01:02:35.702)
Yep.
Melanie (01:02:36.966)
something that doesn't require me to think. But because it doesn't require you to think and I move my body, and it just seems to help bring me back into my body. I do find that exercise is really useful for me and it really helps my body listening to the type of music that I really enjoy. So music.
It's really playful for me and I've got certain playlists that give me lot of energy that can really help. Listening to your podcasts is really good because I find them really grounding and it's really nice listening to the voices of people who are regulated.
out.
Maybe messaging a friend, sometimes scrolling on social media is really helpful. Looking at dog videos.
Rick And Mel (01:03:27.287)
Yeah.
Rick And Mel (01:03:30.722)
I was looking at cake making videos last night. I love it cake decorating. Holy shit anyway
Melanie (01:03:31.62)
nice.
They are amazing. They are so skilled. I'm always in awe of somebody who can do that. What do you do? Do you notice this? Do you notice, do you have tools that you use? What state would you say that you go into when you feel stressed?
Rick And Mel (01:03:43.33)
So this
Rick And Mel (01:03:54.389)
If I...
If I use the procrastination thing, like as a specific stressor of like, I've got a thing to do and I'm just not doing it.
Melanie (01:04:00.185)
Yeah.
Rick And Mel (01:04:09.952)
I'll probably, I can be a bit of a stubborn bastard. So I was trying to write my welcome email to my newsletter the other day and I had an idea in my head, but I couldn't get the words out. And I'm like, nah, if I just stay with this, I think I'll be okay. And I stayed with it and eventually flowed and it was fine. So I've had evidence in the past of that. often it's sometimes it's a matter of like just a little bit more focus.
And then other times it's like, shut this shit down, close the laptop, go take the dog for a walk, do something completely different, get on the phone, have some other human interactions that activate different parts of my brain and my heart, and then come back to it. But I've learned, and especially I think my study this year, writing academic papers has taught me where my boundaries are with procrastination versus necessary processing. Does that make sense?
Melanie (01:04:43.724)
you
Melanie (01:04:53.7)
you
Melanie (01:05:09.69)
Yes.
Rick And Mel (01:05:10.604)
So what's part of the process of learning and reading and piling things together and my thought processes and what's procrastination. And I think I'm giving myself a bit more permission to have a bit more time for the processing aspect of it. Yeah, and I think that's a knock on of like relinquishing the grip of validation of this piece of work defines my worthiness.
Melanie (01:05:26.625)
Yeah, that makes sense.
Rick And Mel (01:05:41.282)
I think that stuff's dissipated quite a lot over the last few years for me, especially last year. So I'm probably just being a bit fucking kinder to myself.
Melanie (01:05:50.315)
Well, that's definitely an important piece, isn't it?
Rick And Mel (01:05:54.467)
it's so easy. You just be kind to yourself. But it's not so easy, is it?
Melanie (01:06:02.721)
Ha
Rick And Mel (01:06:05.206)
I'm
Yeah, and like there's that theme. I'm gonna consciously take the spotlight off me and back to you. My pleasure.
Melanie (01:06:14.591)
thank you.
Rick And Mel (01:06:19.392)
This theme of being sane for you, isn't it?
Melanie (01:06:22.593)
Mm.
Rick And Mel (01:06:25.004)
me about that.
Melanie (01:06:28.121)
You
Rick And Mel (01:06:28.258)
Where did this story start?
Melanie (01:06:30.945)
Where did this story start?
Melanie (01:06:36.913)
I don't even know if I can answer that, to say where that started. It goes back a long way. I think, I don't know, I think it can be attached to a lot of things, partly it goes back to feeling like I wasn't very smart in school, because like honestly I wasn't the smartest. I wasn't the smartest.
Rick And Mel (01:07:01.794)
That's okay.
Melanie (01:07:03.422)
In fact, I can tell you exactly why I went to school, especially high school. I went for English classes and sport and that was it. The rest of it could go and jump in the river as far as I was concerned. Yeah, I mean, just not feeling very smart and my sister is super intelligent and I always felt like I was far less.
intelligent than that and like the stupid one and that kind of makes you not want to be seen if you don't feel very smart you don't feel like and so again that probably comes back a bit to the shame piece doesn't it not very smart so i should hide away
Rick And Mel (01:07:34.173)
Yeah, man.
Rick And Mel (01:07:41.782)
Yeah. Protection. We look after ourselves. It's fucking elite protection skills.
Melanie (01:07:45.725)
you
Melanie (01:07:50.268)
And it also keeps you safe, doesn't it? Because if you don't get seen by anyone, you can't be criticised by anyone.
Rick And Mel (01:07:56.226)
Hmm.
What are the limitations with not being seen and running a business?
Melanie (01:08:03.518)
Well, you know, some breath work and... Yeah.
Rick And Mel (01:08:09.314)
Cause I just, let me just preference this. Like you are not alone. I have a version of this as well. And I think most people who run their own businesses specifically and that they're the face of it probably have a version of this as well. So I'm not, I think it's way more common than just you and I, I hope. But yeah, just what's the impact on your business.
Melanie (01:08:15.612)
Mm. Mm.
Melanie (01:08:31.269)
Yeah, well, I agree. it can make me really fearful of promoting myself.
And then also tied to that then is like, when I don't fill in events, for example, it's like, there you go, see? That's my point. Yep, evidence. Instead of just going, fuck the lot of you, I'm just gonna be there and do my thing. Obviously there's a happy medium between those two things.
Rick And Mel (01:08:49.215)
evidence.
Melanie (01:09:05.597)
But I can really get in the way of being successful in business, hugely.
Rick And Mel (01:09:11.734)
Yeah, because I'm guessing, and just from my own experiences, like being seen in business is different to being seen by another human one on one, isn't it?
Melanie (01:09:24.701)
It's so true and I think actually because I mean I think all small businesses are like this. We want to fully be ourselves in a business and sometimes in the past I've really felt like I couldn't be like I had to have a mask on. These days I try not to be that. I try to be myself.
And that includes having clients as friends, which is something I thought I could not do in the past. I didn't think it was the right thing to do, but now I think it's absolutely the right thing to do, because I am all of that. It's not just a business that I run. It's me.
Rick And Mel (01:10:03.702)
Yeah, fully. It's funny you say that because like that's, it's the one thing I'm not looking forward to in becoming a therapist. There's very strict lines ethically around seeing clients socially for obvious reasons. So I'm just, I'm going to lap it up in the last final years of from coaching to therapy and like, just get myself out there.
Melanie (01:10:06.256)
Yes.
Melanie (01:10:16.315)
you
Melanie (01:10:22.606)
Yeah.
Melanie (01:10:33.216)
Yeah, you do it.
Rick And Mel (01:10:33.666)
I'm the same, like I have a connection with people I work with and it's the same from the gym and it's the same from Men's Circle and these are humans I love hanging out with so it's it's stuff.
Melanie (01:10:43.835)
And also if they come to work with you in your business they like the same things you like so it's kind of normal for you to want to hang out.
Rick And Mel (01:10:54.562)
Yeah.
Sorry, I railroad you then.
Melanie (01:10:59.291)
No you didn't railroad me at all, I think it was definitely a good point that you made because, but I always believed that I couldn't be friends and I had to be this different person, in fact as a fitness trainer in the past I was petrified of telling people I ate chocolate for god's sake, you know, and now I'm like yeah well at the weekend, woof!
Rick And Mel (01:11:20.418)
Yeah, because we're
Melanie (01:11:21.925)
Yeah.
Rick And Mel (01:11:26.338)
So what's, just going back to that, the differentiation between being seen as a business owner and being seen one-on-one with another person.
Rick And Mel (01:11:44.278)
What does it take to feel seen for you in a one-on-one capacity?
Melanie (01:11:51.607)
For me to really fully feel seen by a person, want for them to listen, to actually hear the words that I'm saying and to be able to acknowledge and experience without wanting to fix or needing to fix. But just being able to see me as a human being, you know, not this person who owns a business and
Rick And Mel (01:12:18.092)
Yeah.
Melanie (01:12:22.977)
just as a, and as a real human being. You know, one that has shit that's going on and things that are not working and doesn't always eat right and doesn't necessarily get to exercise. It's just, I have flaws and to be seen and accepted for all of that.
Rick And Mel (01:12:37.43)
Yeah.
Rick And Mel (01:12:41.132)
The validation word pops up here for me, and I think sometimes I can give the validation term a bit of a bum steer, like I can demonise it a little bit about the challenges of chasing validation from a worthiness point of view. But I think one of the things, one of the powerful things about being seen...
in a one-on-one relationship, whether it's with a partner or a friend or anyone, is that you feel like your experience is validated and doesn't need, like you said, doesn't need to be changed or taken away or fixed. It's like, that must be really hard for you right now. You know, it's those comments that, to me, the validating that the other person empathises and resonates with what I'm saying.
Melanie (01:13:26.943)
Yeah.
Melanie (01:13:37.512)
Yeah, that's it.
Rick And Mel (01:13:37.814)
without trying to jump in and change it and, you know, make it better for me.
Melanie (01:13:45.0)
Yeah, yeah, I agree and that is a different form of validation. It's not like jumping through hoops to be accepted validation. It's literally just being accepted for who you are and the acknowledgement of that is literally just that somebody believes that you're important enough to take the time to listen to.
Rick And Mel (01:14:03.51)
Yeah, and that's the unwritten power of it, isn't it? Because if we think about what the act is expressing, the act is expressing that you're worth listening to and I want to sit here with you in whatever's going on for you. Like it's the act of worthiness rather than the verbalisation of it.
Melanie (01:14:07.509)
Yeah.
Melanie (01:14:23.849)
Yeah, it's so true, isn't it? And it's so simple yet so friggin' hard to do sometimes.
Rick And Mel (01:14:30.902)
Yeah, yeah, the rescuing and the caretaking and all that stuff that, especially men, feel like it's their role, just based on how they grew up, you know. It's so interesting to see how much of a man's worthiness is attached to how he can problem solve. For everyone.
Melanie (01:14:51.784)
Yeah, and it's, it is, yeah, but even women, like you start doing it with your kids and then it kind of flows into your relationship too. But I think one, going back to the nervous system stuff, one tool I learned in some of the stuff that one of the courses I did recently and it was so powerful was when you notice that you're not connecting very well with the person and you want them to feel like they are really important because you do and
Rick And Mel (01:15:00.642)
Yeah.
Melanie (01:15:21.341)
that it's not, you know, sometimes we drift off. You notice that when you're in a conversation, you're like, shit, I don't remember what they said. A really awesome tool that I learned was to feel your feet on the ground, feel the sensation of the ground under your feet, so connecting with the earth, and then coming into the breath, and coming into noticing the breath and breathing. And when you notice your breath, you slow down and automatically,
It opens up this line of communication between you and that person where you feel and it allowed, oh god, it's allowed me to have such better conversations where I feel like I've become better at just listening to somebody's experience.
Rick And Mel (01:16:02.764)
think there could be a whole podcast around the different skills about deep listening. I think the context or the pre-work of rescuing, fixing, sort of stuff, trying to bracket that and put that away and coming in with fresh eyes and being present, you know, the practicality of grounding your feet and feeling your breath and being with the person. And then there's this part that we learn a lot about and just stalled around resonance and sharing resonance.
Melanie (01:16:07.272)
Mmm.
Melanie (01:16:17.107)
you
Rick And Mel (01:16:32.586)
around the impact that the other person is having on you right now. when you said that thing about your mum, I really felt it in my heart. Like those sort of, like there's so many intricacies around the art of listening. And I think the art of listening is how the people in our world feel seen if we can become a better listener. So I think it's super underrated in regards to our...
Melanie (01:16:37.139)
Ugh.
Melanie (01:16:41.507)
Yeah.
Rick And Mel (01:16:59.914)
mental, emotional health, our relationships and our connections is that simple, not so simple, but it is simple, art of listening.
Melanie (01:17:10.232)
Yeah, absolutely. And we were introduced to the concept of physiological rudeness, where when somebody's talking and talking to you and you're like, you're, yeah, and it's like, you're not really meaning to be rude, but the disconnection that creates between you and the person that you're conversing with. And then how the fact that your nervous system is not regulated.
Rick And Mel (01:17:15.778)
I never heard of that.
Rick And Mel (01:17:20.475)
yeah right.
Melanie (01:17:35.086)
which is dysregulating to their nervous system. So if somebody's sharing something really important with you and you're not able to ground yourself and connect, like, because of course we're sharing nervous system at this point when we're having a conversation.
Rick And Mel (01:17:47.586)
So if you're on your phone or if you're looking away or that sort of stuff.
Melanie (01:17:51.428)
Wonder what time it is, what was that noise? Or somebody might change the subject and then go, sorry. And if you're being vulnerable in that moment, it can be, well, not a very enjoyable experience.
Rick And Mel (01:17:56.342)
Yeah, yeah,
Rick And Mel (01:18:04.214)
What was the term for it?
Melanie (01:18:06.346)
I think it was physiological rudeness. Don't quote me on that because I'm on it. I'm on it. Thanks. And I've said it in front of all of the people. I think it was, I think it was Jess, Jessica McGuire's course that I was doing. And I'm pretty sure that's what it was called, but I found her work to be amazing too. She's a nervous, Jessica McGuire, nervous system regulation. Cool, cool stuff. Great stuff to learn. We should all be learning it. And how
Rick And Mel (01:18:10.206)
I am going to call you.
Rick And Mel (01:18:15.852)
physiological rudeness.
Rick And Mel (01:18:25.506)
Who was that?
Rick And Mel (01:18:34.198)
Yeah, yeah.
Melanie (01:18:34.927)
So we can have better relationships with ourselves and better relationships with other people and make this world that we live in a more connected and supportive place.
Rick And Mel (01:18:46.37)
He are fucking here. I'm here for that.
Melanie (01:18:47.831)
Yeah.
Rick And Mel (01:18:52.162)
That's nearly a mic drop moment, reckon. It's like, boom, done. Well, it's true. It's just like, we learn the... Can we build the muscle of connection? And what's the impact that that has on our life? This shit can be that simple. I don't think it needs to be crazy complicated.
Melanie (01:19:14.127)
I really don't either. I used to think that I was completely broken, but now I can see myself in the context of what I was designed to be from an evolutionary point of view. And that just means that all I need to do is to connect back in.
Rick And Mel (01:19:30.85)
Yeah, yeah, awesome. So I like to finish off on a question of what's exciting you or what is exciting for you right now. And that can be right now in this moment or it can be right now in life. So yeah, what do you got for me?
Melanie (01:19:48.772)
What's exciting for me in this moment? So many things. So many things, but this year is my word for this year is expansion. And that's going to be expansion of my window of tolerance. So I'm working on always expanding that window of tolerance, expansion of my offerings. So moving more into breath work and the nervous system regulation work.
Rick And Mel (01:19:59.988)
Mmm.
Melanie (01:20:18.531)
and expanding of my capacity to be seen. Yeah, I'm excited because I'm delivering breath work in an ice bath for somebody's retreat. So I'm super excited about having been asked to do that. And I'm running my own workshop, a breath work and nervous system regulation workshop.
Rick And Mel (01:20:26.889)
I like that one.
Melanie (01:20:47.435)
in March as well and just I'm just excited for this year and more breath work bringing more breath work to the world and bringing more women together to connect with each other and with themselves.
Rick And Mel (01:21:01.506)
Because what I see in you in all that is that your 2025 version of that is by far the most authentic aligned representation of who you are as a human, unequivocally, apologizing, without perfection. It's just, this is me, this is what I care about, and this is what I'm going to do. I fucking love that, you know, I just...
Melanie (01:21:27.597)
Mm.
Rick And Mel (01:21:30.284)
That's what excites me about watching humans go after it. It's like, can I do this in a way that is me? You know? And it embraces my weirdness, it embraces my imperfections and it embraces all of me because then I'm human and people will relate to that.
Melanie (01:21:38.145)
Yeah.
Melanie (01:21:50.253)
Absolutely and it's definitely been as a result of this work, this amazing work that we've been doing together that I'm so grateful for. Because it has really been, it has been life changing, there's no question about that. And I know people say, it's going to be life changing. No, it really is. If you want it to be life changing and you find the right people to surround yourself with and you're willing to do the work, you will change your life and that's it.
Rick And Mel (01:21:59.265)
and
Rick And Mel (01:22:13.836)
Correct. Yeah, it's been fun, hasn't it?
Melanie (01:22:17.997)
That's been bloody awesome. How about you? What are you? Can I, can we finish on what you're excited about?
Rick And Mel (01:22:23.062)
Yeah.
There's a lot. I feel like a little kid at the moment. Moving into a new house on Monday and that feels like the end of a chapter and the start of a chapter in the most beautiful way. that feels really, it's taken a long time to pull all the ducks in a row to make that happen. So there's been an enormous amount of housing uncertainty and...
Melanie (01:22:29.069)
I'm so happy.
Rick And Mel (01:22:56.46)
human uncertainty and financial uncertainty and all the stuff that goes with marriage separation and all of that. So it feels like this is the, is the first step in a really exciting chapter with Joe and Finn and I and just it represents a new life for us. And that can sound over dramatic but that's what feels true.
Melanie (01:23:20.563)
No, no I can see that. I think it's really wonderful. It's amazing what you've created together.
Rick And Mel (01:23:29.066)
Yeah, and that's probably the other thing that's exciting. Like we just, we've got this group program that we're doing down in Melbourne with a crew of people and we started it this week and started doing like the one-on-one calls with people before we get together as a group next month. And it's just beautiful work. Like it's just, you know, getting to do something together and we have different superpowers and it's
really exciting to bring them together and to work with groups. I'm learning really quickly that I love being around groups of humans for that, the dynamic of connection that can happen so simply if we allow it to. So that's exciting and I'm actually excited that I'm looking after my health as a priority. So not making it the last thing on the list, making it the first thing on the list this year feels...
feels really good and there's like some nice little knock-on worthiness, I'm worth it type stories rolling around that weren't the intention but I'll take it as an experience and a feeling of yeah, it feels good to put myself first and look after my physical parts, you know.
Melanie (01:24:46.164)
because it's like some foundational stuff isn't it really.
Rick And Mel (01:24:51.241)
massively, yeah. And it was the thing that, because I had so much big picture stuff happening last year, big adult stuff, that I just pushed it away. was like, okay, I'll sort that out when all this is done. And we're not quite done, but we're pretty close. And it feels good to be being healthy again, you know.
Melanie (01:25:14.121)
Well, that is exciting. I'm really excited for you with the house because as you know, we've been looking too. So I know it's big.
Rick And Mel (01:25:20.812)
It's a mission, isn't it?
Yeah, so we're on our last couple of days with that, so feels good. Thank you for taking time and doing something you've never done before.
Melanie (01:25:38.953)
No, thank you. I really appreciate you encouraging me to do this.
Rick And Mel (01:25:44.086)
Yeah, I just think we've all got an amazing story and it's, you know, everyone will get what they get from this podcast and yeah, it's been really fun. So thank you for your time and we will see you again soon.
Melanie (01:25:59.527)
Yes, absolutely. Thank you. I'd love that.
Rick And Mel (01:26:02.37)
Alright, cheers Mel.
Melanie (01:26:03.817)
Cheers.
