Ep 15: The other side of healing with with Greg Goldstein

Show notes.

Growing up in New York and now residing in Byron Bay, Greg Goldstein has lived a life full of rich experiences. A traveller in the true sense of the word both geographically and internally, he is a deep well of wisdom.

In this conversation, Greg shares his current reality of being called forward towards parenthood and the role perfectionism plays in holding him back.

We also dance with the challenges of getting lost in story and rumination it leads to a juicy conversation.

If you enjoy this chat, click the follow button, leave a rating or drop a comment. I love hearing your feedback.

Connect with Greg: https://www.instagram.com/_gregory_goldstein/

Rick Insta: https://www.instagram.com/rickwatson_/

Rick Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100081282588949

Keywords

presence, awareness, fear, anticipation, curiosity, questions, answers, unknown, mind, body, silence, chaos, rumination, emotional healing, vulnerability, parenthood, self-discovery, perfectionism, conscious parenting, emotional presence, joy, creativity, relationships

Transcript

Rick And Greg (00:01.56)

Greg Goldstein. Mr. Watson. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me.

We have so many stories. Don't we? I'm thinking of, yeah, it's been a cool relationship that I've had with you. But before we jump into that, I just want to check in and see what it's like to be you sitting here in the Woollen Bar, physically, mentally, emotionally, like what's going on right now. Thanks for asking. And that's a beautiful opportunity to be actually present here. So let me.

Let me feel in my chest. There's the sensation that's familiar to me of it's not quite as tight as it normally is or can be. There's that.

As I bring attention to it, that tightening actually loosens up. And then the attention goes to my throat. And I notice the quickening of my breath.

Rick And Greg (01:09.344)

scratching my eye.

Yeah.

So more of an embodied experience, even if it's mild discomfort.

Rick And Greg (01:24.737)

and

As we're used to doing in the kind of coaching space, I guess, or the one that we shared for a little while, I associate some emotions with those feelings. of which is nervousness could be excitement, anticipation of what's to come.

Rick And Greg (01:51.895)

And yeah, with my eyes closed and just being here in the space, it's, feels natural. It feels good. So yeah, grateful to be here with you. That's, that's definitely what my mom would always tell me. Change your attitude to gratitude. Yeah. Nervousness, potentially excitement and anticipation. Absolutely. Nice. Yeah. We were talking about.

fear of the unknown, which is probably what most humans experience at one point in their life. And I certainly have my fair share of that, but I like to reframe it, right? It's also anticipation. like, could be, what's the possibility? Universe surprised me. Or novelty seeking creatures. And I think we chatted during the week just on...

on Instagram and was like, do we have a theme or are we going to freestyle? And I'm like, we're freestyle. I think that's the premise of the whole podcast is just to give enough space to see what emerges in the, in the dialogue and the relationship and just honor where it goes and know that it doesn't have to go in any certain direction that we pre-plan. So I feel a lot of relief in that a lot of,

simplicity in that. Yeah. Absolutely. Me too. One of the things I envied about my friends in high school was their ability to freestyle. Yeah. Grew up in New York and we were all passionate about hip hop. for whatever reason, I couldn't get my butt off the couch to just start yabbering. Even if it didn't make sense.

and just see what came out and it's taken a while, but I'm definitely a little more comfortable in this zone of freestyling. Definitely can just, we can banter. That's what I love about it, Australia. Good old banter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If I'm gonna do a little cheeky check-in.

Rick And Greg (04:06.668)

Yeah, there's a little bit of tension in my chest at the moment.

Rick And Greg (04:17.646)

tension in my neck leading up to the back of my head.

noticing a desire to rationalize all that and give it meaning, but I'll just leave that.

Rick And Greg (04:36.975)

feel hungry and there's a little bit of tension in the chest just around, probably the story next to that is like wanting to do a good job. Yeah, there's a little bit of that, like wanting to make this amazing podcast, which kind of just goes in the face of what we just talking about. But I think that pattern is still in me, like that desire, that default need to...

wanna do a good job, be a good boy. So just acknowledging that little, maybe 5 % is just ticking away now.

Mentally I feel...

pretty clear, literally before you walked in, I had my last coaching session for the year. So it's very symbolic of the end. So. Well, don't be so sure. Maybe this will be your actual last one. So as far as like organization and responsibility and tying up loose ends and all of those things that I pretend to do as an adult, that's kind of been put down now. So.

There's, it's the beginning of the holidays for me right now. You can be a kid again. Yeah. Yeah. I get to be a good boy or whatever kind of boy you want to be. Well, I'm batching for the next three days, so I could be a really bad boy. I probably won't. and yeah, emotionally,

Rick And Greg (06:19.878)

There's not a lot that I can point my finger at. There's just that little bit of a sneaky anxiety, probably more excitement because I know where our conversations tend to go to and it's always a place that I don't expect and have some excitement of being able to have you on the couch. Thanks. It's always fun to go back and forth and see where it takes us.

How the hell do we know each other? Good question. So we were introduced, I guess, through a man named Jator. And I imagine you might've talked about him in the past. Yes. I've had Laura on who's worked with Jator. Very cool. Yeah. And I knew about Jator through my fresh romantic interest at the time. So this was around COVID.

I'd say 2020. we were already a few months in probably North American summer, but leading into winter here in Australia. And that's where I was living. And that's how I knew this partner whom I'm now with, but we had, we didn't have the same container we did then. And in any case, sharing similar interests of self development and spirituality, we actually met in a spiritual retreat. Yep.

she said, Hey, I know this guy. I think he might be interested. He does really good work. and I'd heard about holistic health coaching, she was deep in that world as Jator still is.

And so that's how we, I think we met in the second of the programs that I did with him. I'm not sure if it was, it definitely wasn't the first, which is restore. Yeah. It was the second one. love it. Yes. So he has different stages of taking his clients through whatever it is. can't really put a finger on it exactly, but yeah, a lot of his jatorisms have stuck with me and provided ample fodder for, you know,

Rick And Greg (08:32.365)

rumination or illumination and I'm sure we'll talk about some of those topics. Yeah, I think looking back now, I think we were partners as well. did some partner work together. Yep. Which there's no way to not to get to know an element of someone just by doing partner coaching on each other and playing with these ideas and.

It's probably exactly what we're doing right now, but just in a different setting. But I think one of the gifts that I got from the tour and one of many was just the ability to...

ask curious questions. And I think that's probably the big thing that's really stuck with me and just stopped another expression of that. It's like the next layer of that for me. it's, yeah, that was one of the really big things was just the difference between a statement and a question energetically. And then what that meant in regards to working with someone. And yeah, for me, that was a big takeaway on that couple of years, really. That's a beautiful.

gift that he gave me as well, because I'm always seeking answers. It's that, that energy has not stopped and that's a beautiful thing, but yeah, thinking that I already have the answer is not so beautiful, especially when it's in relation to someone else. And so, especially in a therapeutic context, which I still am preparing myself to step into, in a, in a helping role for others.

If I think that I have the answer, that's already shortchanging both of us. And especially the person who needs the support, because I have no idea what their actual internal experience is. Even if I know some of their history, I don't know what's true for them right now. And I don't know what to agree. So that's so easy to do though, because our ego wants to prove that we have the answers. Like we get something from that.

Rick And Greg (10:36.143)

talking about being a good boy, I definitely share that, you I don't know if it's a failure of the education system I got, but I was rewarded for having the answer. And I actually think just as a sidetrack story, there was this string of a couple of weeks in AP Biology, which is like a college level biology course that I took in high school.

for the two weeks that I said this one word denaturalization, protein denaturalization, it was always on the money. So it was like, didn't matter what the question was. I just threw that out there and I knew it was true, but you know, it became a running joke of sorts. And I kind of come back to that and there is no tangent. You're right. Because denaturalization means like that unraveling of the protein, you know, if something comes into hurt the protein or whatever, it basically destroys its structure.

And I'd say that having the answer can totally unravel the structure in a damaging way. You know, so if you have that pre-programmed like one size fits all, or this remedy is going to work for everyone. Could be, but you know, eventually there was that, that string of luck is going to run out and you're going to come up against someone who needs something completely different, which is probably that, that openness and that presence.

How does having the answer, what does that bring you? Historically, maybe not so much today, but in the past, what has it brought you? Well, I can identify it right now. It's like if I have the answer for you, I can feel safe in knowing what I'm gonna say next.

It doesn't, it doesn't make me vulnerable to having to actually listen to what you're saying and like not knowing the answer, which of course is a blow to the ego. The ego has all the answers or at least mine does or wishes to have it so that I can show up as the knight in shining armor, so to speak. So not having the

Rick And Greg (12:51.683)

the weapon in my arsenal. Yeah. Yeah. It makes me vulnerable. Yeah. And so otherwise I can be seemingly invulnerable with that answer with that, you know, and especially also when it comes to even like, let's say, either school context or wherever, where, know, there's a teacher and I'm the student or whatnot. I can prove my worth and I can have.

I can take the pressure off myself by proving my worth in that instance so that I can breathe easier later. So if that's the case, what does it mean to you to not know? It's twofold like anything. The big feeling for me is fear, as I said, of the unknown. I don't know if we've gotten into that just yet, but it's certainly a, yeah, it's a huge one for me.

but it's also the excitement. It's also the, okay, I don't know. I have to actually think for myself here. I can't just give a pre-programmed answer that I've either programmed for myself or I've learned from someone else. yeah, I can be like, all right, we're actually free freestyling here. We're gonna surprise ourselves. And yeah, it's probably gonna be, if not beautiful, at least interesting. Yeah.

And also just a fun example for people listening that it's okay. Absolutely. Just, I don't know, but let's just play around and see what we dance with and what comes out. Yeah, exactly. Cause the fear of the unknown is that it's not going to be okay. Yeah. You know, the ego doesn't get it. Yeah. And of course, even when things aren't going supposedly okay, they are. We're still alive. We're still here. Yeah.

And that was another beautiful offering that, one of the therapists I was working with in my hypnotherapy, self inquiry schools, she asked me in the midst of a, an emotional moment in our session, are you okay? You know, just even in the midst of utter emotional chaos, are you okay?

Rick And Greg (15:06.984)

And so it's kind of like being in the eye of the storm, right? Like there's shit swirling around you. But you're able to see it for what it is, at least in that moment. And yes, you are okay. You're still here. And, you know, I'm certainly more privileged than most to not have to have experienced some really horrible life experiences like the people that this person, this therapist was working with. She was working with really traumatized kids.

And she asked the same question to them, you know, and it's so powerful. Are you okay? Are you okay? And I think for most of humanity, even the midst of utter terror and chaos, there's some okayness there. Yeah. And it's kind of, it's interesting question to ask in that moment, because for most people, and I'm making an assumption, it's like the opposite of what we feel like. We feel like we're in the chaos. We're in the craziness. We're in the

not having our feet steadily on the ground. And I think that's the power of sometimes those piercing questions, but also just the capacity to stop and go, I actually am okay. Because it's so interesting how lost we can get in our stories. Even semantically. Tell me more about that semantically. Well, I just think when we get lost in our stories, like what's the...

how does that affect our physiology? we get trapped in the physical feeling. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what I got out of the tools work was that connection between the physical, mental, emotional, and how interrelated they all are. And, know, it's not, you it's been thousands of years that that's been the case, but in my understanding, it was the first time I'd really put thought into the role that they play to each other.

And which came first, you know, do I feel this tightness in my chest because I'm anxious or am I anxious because there's a tightness in my chest? And I think, I don't think there's any right or wrong answers, but it's more of an awareness piece of like, yeah, there's that. think you said it in your checking. Like there's, there's some anxiety, but it could be excitement. You don't know. Yeah. And that's a really nice.

Rick And Greg (17:30.979)

differentiation of like, it could be that it could be that. The quantum superposition. It's both this and this. Yeah. So yeah, I could definitely get lost in that, but also, it's interesting working with people. The, the reality of having the awareness in the moment to actually stop. Right. And that's a beautiful gift that he's also given us is that holding up in the midst of whatever reaction.

or situation you might find with someone else. Can we take a pause? Like you just offered at the beginning of this and check in. See what's actually here. How many of us actually gift ourselves that? Because we forget, we probably know better. Enough of us have come into contact with TherapySpeak and we see it online. So we know of this, but do we practice what we know?

I certainly am guilty of forgetting all the time, but it's catching it and it's something we've talked about before, which is having the awareness of it. Yeah. You know, just having awareness of something I believe can be the only thing that's necessary to change something or to alter its course.

Rick And Greg (18:51.502)

you

Rick And Greg (18:57.487)

I'm just thinking about...

I want to put a pin in that sentence because that's come back to just the around the practicalities of why we struggle. I'm saying we is just a race to various degrees. Why we struggle to stop and come out of story and be present with what's actually happening in our physical body.

from your experience, why have you struggled with that? Like what's been the challenges? What's the roadblocks for you to drop out of story and check in? Well, why? Big question. I have to go all the way back to childhood and tell that story, which is, you know, not to bore people, but growing up in a physically small space with a very big emotional character that was my mom.

I had to learn very early to make myself small, both physically and mentally, emotionally. And where was my most cherished and successful hiding spot? It was in my mind. And of course that's where the story occurs. Just like everything there's the light and shadow and a story can be so beautiful. That's why we're here as humans, right? Whether it's new, you've all know a Hariri talking about the fact that.

humans have become the dominant species on earth as a result of story. Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with it. It's, what holds this very flimsy fabric of society together and makes us capable of having this podcast and the technology to do that and all that stuff. And it's also the thing that, you know, if we're not careful, it can cut us and really

Rick And Greg (20:50.293)

impede us from what we truly want. Yeah, you're lost in that, can't we? Yeah. So for me, it is very simply and in a very cliche way, the journey from the mind to the heart or the mind to the heart and body and just being embodied, being here, you know, it's again, something that I know very well. Am I in my body right now? Am I up in my mind and my story and my ethereal body?

Or am I present physically in this experience knowing you through this felt sense?

Rick And Greg (21:25.912)

Beautiful again reminder just practice what I know practice what I sometimes preach. And I hear in that there's a little push pull from

young Greg, who's alive, you know, he's present. He's doing his default thing. It's the adaptions that he created to be safe and functional and amazing. current day Greg, who has the awareness and the experience and the knowledge is this little push pull between the two of you, these two parts of you. There's another reminder that yes, there is a young me, all of the me's throughout the book of my life.

our existence all throughout the pages. And there's that other forgetting that they are there and that they're calling out for something. And I can be that best parent to them should I choose to. Should I just turn around and look at them and place them on my lap? Ask them what they need. What are you asking for?

And that's again, something that we practiced in the context of Jator's container, as well as other modalities that I've practiced like hypnotherapy and on and on. There are all these different languages and different modalities that they speak to each other very synchronously.

So with the tools, with the modalities.

Rick And Greg (22:59.299)

Where do you still get caught up in coming back to?

of what's happening in the present moment, as opposed to what's happening in the mind.

Rick And Greg (23:13.088)

One of my teachers, the one who created the hypnotherapy school, he would often tell me when I'm up on stage with him having a conversation, stop talking to yourself. It's as simple as that, you know, it's this constant dialogue, which is the source of self doubt and judgment.

And it's so easy to just get caught in that stream of consciousness. Again, it was what helped me as a child, right? To say everything's okay. Or even if things weren't outside, okay. In my mind, in my imagination, which was so beautiful. And I learned from other kids how to imagine all these different worlds. So it was.

A great tool then and it's become that hammer that's seeking out all the nails that aren't actually there. It's just causing utter chaos and destruction. It's a great analogy. Yeah, you know, it's a beautiful tool, but you've got to be the master of it. let it serve you. Don't let it serve itself. And

Rick And Greg (24:29.72)

I wouldn't dare to try and summarize his, this, teacher's message, but I think he and his students would probably agree that a main thrust of it is to stop. Right. And that's the thing that Jator talks about and holding up, but literally just stop giving energy to this insanity going through my mind.

And it just makes me think of this hilarious story. When I was at a festival called earth frequency up in Queensland. And I see the stop sign that someone's holding to guide traffic. Did I tell you this? I've seen your photos. Yeah. And I'm like, wait, is my name on that stop sign? And I get closer and it says Greg, the stop sign. I know the song. That's right. And that's where it came from, but I'm.

American side and know about this pretty famous Aussie song. I actually didn't learn about it till the, till the floods and some biker. Yeah, exactly. This weirdo band that came up with Greg, the stop sign. So in any case, it just thought it was hilarious. And I got that picture that you've seen. And then I came into contact with this therapist, this teacher who just said stop. And it just came so clear to me. It's like Greg, the stop sign. Your name is to stop. The universe is telling you stop.

Or rather, if Greg, the ego construct and the story thereof is coming up and blinding me, stop it. Stop the story. Yeah. Yeah. Both sides of that. And then in its absence in the story's absence is silence. And in that silence, which can be uncomfortable, but it can also be.

so rich and beautiful and that's the place where true knowing can come from. What's your relationship with silence like?

Rick And Greg (26:37.329)

just like everything it's evolving and dynamic. I have an intentional practice of sitting every morning right after I wake up and brush my teeth. And again, that's been intermittent. Yeah. But growing up in a family where my mom was following a guru who advised meditation and chanting and these other things, but all of it, even when you're chanting.

There's the period of coming into silence afterwards to let the vibrations settle back down. And so I was raised from in the womb in this type of yogic philosophy of valuing silence, right? The, the guru was a devotee of Shiva and Shiva is known as the destroyer. So what happens after everything's been destroyed? There's nothing it's void. It's vacant. So.

Yeah, big question. And it's a, it's a beautiful relationship because I love it. And sometimes I hate it. Sometimes I am like nature that a pours the vacuum and need to fill it with something. That can be any number of distractions, food, the screen, sex, on and on and on.

But then there's also the true knowing that it's my true nature and I love it. And when I can actually be there, even just for, and what seems like ephemeral moment, it just, it feels so rich and beautiful. Yeah. I'm just thinking about, for me as well, it's, it seems to be so reliant on the field conditions, like what's going on in my world.

I've just had an experience in the last couple of months of being away on residential where there was quite a lot of, well the theme was presence and possibility. And leading into that period, I was about as absent and non-present as I had been most of the year in regards to sorting out lots of just life logistical stuff.

Rick And Greg (28:51.919)

And it was the little experience that I needed, day one, to be like, the theme is presence and possibility. I'm just like, And I used to have a really consistent meditation practice around the Dhanambhara. And it's been really intermittent since then. And it became really clear that all I need to do is to just sit for a couple of minutes every morning. And that's just what I did.

It added so much to that experience, but it took me to that point of having it kind of shoved down my throat. Like, we're doing presence, you're included. Before, yeah, got to that, I made the action.

I remember in circle every Monday we'd do some breath work and some silence before we start just to drop into our current state. And I remember the last sort of six or eight weeks I'd be like, this feels so good right now. Why aren't I doing more of this? Absolutely. And that question continued for six or eight weeks. And then I went to residential and I'm like, all right, universe. So I have this, for me in those...

heightened states like those stressed states, those agitated states. Silence represents.

a doorway to the chaos that's going on in my mind and I don't want to open that door. So I don't search out the silence and fill it with other things. And it's really interesting.

Rick And Greg (30:33.913)

to now step into that and even now coming back after residential and having still feeling pulled to search out some silence and not forcing it as a discipline but feeling pulled to do it. And that's a nice, I find that's a nice difference for me as opposed to like, I'm gonna effort the shit out of this and I need to make space for the silence. But even in that, I feel like there's a lot of relationship with it.

a more giving relationship rather than that fearful part of like the doorway to chaos. Don't look in there. You know, but that's interesting because I want to come back to that doorway to chaos. I knew you'd say that. And I also want to clarify that when you asked me about my relationship to silence and I told you it's about for me right now sitting every morning. Well, that's all well and good, but that's actually quite

novice level, first off, because I'm not sitting for very long. You know, I'm not absorbed in Samadhi, you know, this beautiful bliss state. I'm absolutely exposed to the chaos of my mind. So there's actually only these brief glimmers of silence where I'm like, okay, stop gently, you know, because there's different energies you could put behind the stop command. Yeah. So for me, it's, it's really about practicing that gentle. I see the thoughts. Okay. Stop. Not.

traffic officer yelling at people blowing the whistle. And the reason why I'm sitting and why most people are instructed to sit is because it's to take out into the world. It's not a means to its own end. It's actually for practicing in the world. the knock-on effect, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

Rick And Greg (32:28.542)

My question to you is around seeing that supposed door to chaos in your mind. And that's cool not to want to touch it or go there. But at the same time, we were also talking earlier about what we resist persists in a way. So do you feel like by not touching that door to chaos, it's allowing it to grow in a way? I think

think the answer for me is more around discernment. It's more around having the discernment to choose the time and place to open the door as opposed to straight out avoidance of opening the door. So that's probably the key part for me is knowing that there's some big things happening in the world, in my world and the world, but just in my world, at that period and...

giving myself permission to not open the Sure. As opposed to I'm going to put my helmet on and jump in head first. And it's discernment of like, what's my capabilities right now? Absolutely. What can I hold? What can I not hold? And I think a couple of years ago, I was like, let's heal whatever fucking cost I'm up for it. Let's go. Like I'm in. And I think I've just developed more discernment over the years of

knowing when I feel pulled rather than pushing. It's probably the best way to put it. Yeah. I appreciate that distinction because of course, well, not of course, but I have experience with a family member who had an inability to make that discernment. wasn't able to avoid or not touch the chaos of her mind. yeah. And then seeing my mom in mental institutions,

surrounded by people that similarly just for whatever reason didn't have that capability to put a barrier between the chaos and themselves, whether it be their own story or the fields outside of them.

Rick And Greg (34:40.547)

But again, I guess I have the privilege of staying relatively sane in this experience of my life to have that discernment of, all right, well, yeah, me too. Just like you, Rick, I'm not gonna go there if I don't need to. I'm only gonna jump into the infinite chaos, say through a psychedelic trip or whatever, or through an intentional really deep therapy session.

And it's going to be with that intention of, right, we're going there. We're going to face it, but we're not going to consciously opening the door. Exactly. And not let it just take over our lives and spill over into other people's lives too. So I totally respect that. And the reality is that when you walk through the door, there's really, you know, there's a, there's a relinquishment of control anyway. It's like, you have to be in whatever's there. So that's where I think the discernment is the

you have control over the opening of the door, but then after that, it's like, well, I'm here and I can either moonwalk back out of the door, but you know, there's periods in therapy and psychedelics and all that sort of stuff where that's not possible. Right. Or sometimes it's not also encouraged. Like it's good to be able to, you know, feel and have the experience and then be on the other side of that and see the gold of it. know, so. Yeah.

This is certainly relevant to my own personality type because I'm fascinated by the mind, right? Learning the little that I know about the Enneagram, mine is a mental type. So I love exploring the intricacies of my mind and others. And so there's a desire even to want to go into that chaos myself with that intention that I just spoke of.

and having, let's say a ceremony in Ayahuasca where I really just had no control, kind of like what you just talking about. I was tumbling through the void and didn't feel like I had any ground to stand on. was absolutely at the mercy of the medicine and wherever I was. And I made that intention. You know, I really, I asked for what I understood to be soul retrieval. I didn't even understand that fully. I probably still don't, but I wanted the pieces that I had lost to come back.

Rick And Greg (37:00.323)

Yeah. In order to get those pieces, I guess I had to really go through these worlds. And at some point I was making such a commotion and the outside had become such a, such a whirlwind. Literally the winds were whipping through this teepee and it felt like the thing was going to come crashing down. And the singer is just peeking in his crescendo of beautiful music and I'm wailing and shaking.

And unbeknownst to me, the, the medicine woman came over and helped bring me out of it. And I was grateful for her to do that. Kind of like what you're talking about. It's like to go there, but then to come back. But after it was done, I was, and still am left with this question of, what if she just let me go? What if I really just like went there wherever there was like, what would have happened? And I still have that question in my mind of like completely losing it, but.

Yeah, I've had my fair share of those medicine induced experiences to be like, all right, when's it enough? When's it time to hang up the phone as, Alan Watts once said to, to around us. And it's kind of like, you know,

Rick And Greg (38:20.234)

looking at what you have, the gifts that you've received from those experiences. But I can see the pull, especially if that's your enneagram and it's like, this feeds a part of me, a really strong part of me. But I think that also translates into everyday life for you, doesn't it? It does translate to my everyday life. And something we were talking about earlier is that

It can be the hindrance. It's that intense rumination. And what we were even just talking about just now, which is that supposed safe space of my mind and my story is what's preventing me from being here in the world with others.

forget about purpose, but just doing something. How does that show up? Like what's the practicality of that in your everyday life?

It shows up in me not showing up. Yeah, I'm showing up here and I'm loving this experience because I get to, to freestyle with you and talk shop. And this is what I want to do more of with others and simply explore what's here. But it seems as though I'm sitting on my couch mostly and thinking about what I'm going to be doing as opposed to just putting the laptop down.

putting the phone away, getting out there in the world and doing something, whether it be of service or simply making an income. I've been in a beautiful and also perhaps let's call it self-defeating path of healing. I've mentioned my mom a few times here and that was an intense relationship from which I've come to some

Rick And Greg (40:15.448)

beautiful resolutions and revelations around. And as I talked to you before I got here, I'm listening to Anthony DiMello talk about stop fixing your stuff. You know, it's another one of those tools that's out of control. And you know, the healing tool, the healing hammer is, it's just, it's just paralyzing it at one point.

I can remember we were having conversations about that a couple of years ago. Like where's that? Where's the end point? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So who's to say whether it's all supposed to be resolved now or in this lifetime or whatever, but, having a wonderful, inexplicably gorgeous partner, both on the outside and within, you know, a true being of love.

I'm really grateful that she's at this present moment in our relationship and in our lives calling me forward to do something, to do something that I am good at and something that's worthwhile, but something that's going to be in support of our continued journey together. So yeah, this wonderful relationship that has been certainly the most committed, the most amount of feet that I've had landed inside as opposed to

one out the door. Yeah. Yeah, it's been so good. So don't know how we got off that tangent, but there's no tangents.

I'm just this idea of being called forward.

Rick And Greg (41:58.095)

what's that experience like for you? For someone else that you obviously love and respect to call you forward. Like what's that like? What is that? What does that awaken? What is that fire? Yeah. Within the context of the fear of the unknown, this is the biggest unknown because, hmm, actually I'm gonna check myself on that. Our couples therapist has reminded us that it's not that we're afraid of the unknown. We're afraid of what we have known.

projected onto the supposed unknown. Right? So it's, we only know what we can be afraid of from what we've either experienced or imagined in our mind.

And I think, as you said, it's like, how do I know that creating a family with this woman isn't going to be the best thing for me. Right. Or so much better than I could possibly imagine right now. And so that's what it feels like to be called forward is to remember what I've been told. And what I feel to be true is that, it's not that I'm afraid of this blank slate of,

of a new family together. That's not what it is. It's just the projection of the past onto that. Yeah. So putting that down, when is that enough? Like, and that's coming back to that question of, you know, heal the past by just saying, okay, I'm not going to touch it anymore. Yeah. I'm just going to give myself to what's here. And you know, our eyes look forward. There's, no eyes in the back of our head. Yeah. So respect that. One foot in front of the other. And that's the really interesting part about doing more work in just this year.

has been the work that we do in that is what's alive in the present moment. And that often leads us back to unfinished business in the past, but we don't start in the past and go, okay, what do wanna heal? It's like, what's showing up today? What's in our chest? Like what's happening right now in this moment? And I think that's part of the gift of that check-in. And then there's all variations of that. it's, can I see what's alive right now?

Rick And Greg (44:07.914)

and work with that rather than continually like trying to heal the past when there's an opportunity or a chance or a potentiality that healing that may not impact your present. May not impact your future. And that's why I think that the opportunity to deal with what's presenting in the moment, because like right now you have some stuff presenting in the moment. There's some challenges around being called forward, moving.

into the next chapter of your life. That's the goal that's alive right now. That's it. And what's possibly coming up in between me and that is also what's present for me and that's in my body. So for instance, a couple of days ago, I was at this really low point in regards to my rumination and my feelings of what's going to happen in the future.

And it came down to the emotional and physical bodies where I was just overwhelmed with that energy and had no choice, but to surrender to it and allow those tears and that movement to happen. and my partner asked me, you know, what did you do? What, what changed? I was like, I didn't have any brilliant resolution or revelation around this big topic we're discussing. It's just that I let this shit move and I just feel so much better. And then from that.

place of freedom, I can relate to her and to what's actually in front of me in a more, in a wiser and much more present way. Without space, there can be no movement. Yes. Letting that move through and create some space to something new to emerge. Absolutely. And if I could just demonstrate one thing for those who might see something in my story, it's that, you know, as a man, and I'm reading this book on manhood,

that I picked up from a wood shop of all places. It's just to show that it's okay to be present with those emotions. And it's not just okay, it's necessary and it's fulfilling and it's gonna be the key to liberation because it's otherwise gonna trap and imperil whatever it is that I want in this world. Like if I know what I want and I think I do, no, I know I do. But it's that.

Rick And Greg (46:31.552)

emotional stagnation and repression, which I've learned to work with and release and allow. Like all of this healing work, if it's been for one thing, it's been for that. It's so simple. It has no words. It's just the truth of the physical and the emotional feeling and that's it. It's like the definition of seeing yourself.

Rick And Greg (46:59.375)

feeling yourself, seeing yourself, because it's often what we search for in others. But if we're turning our back on ourselves and not seeing all our own parts, that's potentially got a greater risk as opposed to the calling that we want, the seeing that we want from others. And that's like, it start with us? Can we not turn our back on ourselves? Can we give ourselves permission to feel and be okay to have a tear and be okay to.

experience the full gamut of it without the...

Rick And Greg (47:35.599)

Yeah, there's so many stories that attach to that for men. And we were talking before about what it's like to ask for support. And it's often that those emotions are attached with a story of something wrong with me. I don't know how to fix it. Like what, what's happening. And in our culture that we're in a very sort of fixie, rescuie caretaky sort of, you know, environment situation in a lot of spaces, but it's like that.

permission to feel is like the ability to see yourself and not push yourself away. Yeah. And there's some fucking gold in that. There's absolutely permission. And I would, if I was to offer a value judgment around it, it's a necessity. Yeah. Right. To survive or to thrive. You can survive without it, but to actually thrive and to live the life that you or that I want.

It is necessary to go there, feel that and take responsibility for the inner experience. Cause we can go down that whole philosophical rabbit hole about it's all an internal experience. It's all mental, et cetera. It's all being projected outwards, but on a very real level, it's true. And we're only meeting people through our inner experience. So if we're to meet our partner, what is, what is that person showing me within myself? Right? Yeah, probably.

Yeah, that's a rabbit hole we can jump down, but I actually wanna go the other direction. Because this links back to what we were saying at the start around like the ability to slow down out of our story and be present with that body. That's the practical representation of that. And it's that.

permission to see ourselves and there's big roadblocks to that.

Rick And Greg (49:32.044)

And I think from a really practical level, like for people, well for us, for people listening, like what's something you do that brings you back to the present? So when you were feeling like that, how did you drop back in and let those emotions be and give them permission to be?

I'll just think back to the first time I had that experience where it literally I had no choice. And that's the evidence. Yeah. I would say that, you know, working with a group that had made it okay to be vulnerable, made it okay to show emotion in front of others. You know, there was

I would say a majority of women who were present in this group who were.

breaking down as a result of the practices we were doing. Yep. Cause the things were coming up for them. But then it was seeing the modeling of the men in the group also similarly allowing themselves to be vulnerable, not just in this group setting, but in this group setting in public, we were in India and you just get a lot more permission and leeway to

look and act crazy. It's an expectation rather than it really is like, you know, after having this is a sidetrack to the main point, but it's after having read Osho, I believe he mentions how ashrams often will keep quote unquote, crazy people or people who have lost their minds on the premises, because they're actually a example of what is possible and what

Rick And Greg (51:22.498)

the end goal is we're trying to lose our minds. You know? Obviously not to the point where we're unhinged and not in this reality, but, they were taken care of, you know, they weren't just treated as a sideshow apparently. And that's the same thing in this group. So coming back to the beginning of my journey with being emotionally vulnerable and having no choice, it was only at the end of, I think a month with this group watching

participating in some pretty esoteric and out there practices. And then coming to a sense of failure, like I couldn't do what was being asked of me. And something happened in my whole body, but it was like a grinding of my mental gears that came to a stop.

And you know, the words did not compute is something that probably would come up, you know, and, because of that, because I was so reliant on my mind and my intellect and my knowledge, when that failed, I utterly broke down for the better part of an hour, just sobbing in front of these people. And no one came over because it was first off in the middle of this other session we were having, but because they were all comfortable with that experience.

People just let me be and just let me break down. And I had not had that experience as an adult.

up until that point. Yeah, you know, I'd learn to shut it down. I'd learned to. Yeah, same rule in our circle. It's like if a man is expressing and is really emotional, it's like letting be really emotional and express. Absolutely doesn't need a hug. There's no fixing it. That's it. It fixes itself. And so coming back to the near present moment of this experience I had a couple of days ago, it was like I was searching for books. I was searching for my partner's

Rick And Greg (53:17.558)

Oracle cards to give me an answer. I wanted the mental knowing and it didn't come. And the only thing that helped was stopping where I was and just fucking feeling it.

Rick And Greg (53:36.377)

This is a loaded question. Thanks for the warning. Because we've also had conversations about this. So, and with this part, what's the role that perfectionism has in that for you? Because there's, like we all have a different relationship with perfectionism and striving to be, and I'm just wondering what that role is with you in this context. Yeah.

No, good clarification. Cause I could just go on and on about that perfectionism bullshit. but in this context yet, if I don't get it right, if I don't show up with the right answer for myself and for my partner, it felt like my world was going to end.

There was that ego death. was, there was a mini ego death there that was first presenting itself and then which actually happened because

there's this projection of myself that needs to be good, do the right thing, have the right answer, you know, come out of it so that she sees me as that others see me as a good partner, acting with integrity, as opposed to just being a very flawed human that has whatever programs that are still running.

And a physical and emotional body that needs to be tended to. So yeah, those other two were being subjugated at the cost of this story of perfectionism, I guess. I wouldn't have thought of it that way, but it was, it was certainly that it was. How am I going to have the right answer to have the right life?

Rick And Greg (55:34.979)

How am gonna have the right answer to have the right life? Yeah. Whose right life are you having? Yeah, I mean, I knew this before I was listening to this audio book on the way here by DeMello. But of course it's my parents, it's my societies, it's everyone who I've come into contact with who either has explicitly like my family or my friends who...

sometimes explicitly or just by their modeling of the life they're living. Yeah. Present me with the false image of what it is to mean to have a successful and meaningful and worthwhile life and relationship.

Rick And Greg (56:19.962)

So yeah, it's easy to say and fuck it's so brutal to like actually stand in the face of that energetic momentum. This is the challenge of healing. It's the challenge of actually the knowing is it's one thing to know it. And that's a whole different thing to stand in it to embody it to integrate it.

to repeat it, to make a different decision when you come to the next crossroad. Like it's, they're all different ballgames. You know? Yeah. And I guess what.

I was about to say reasonably scares me, but maybe it's not a reasonable fear. But when a child comes into the picture, that just throws everything up in the air, right? Like I'm pretty sure you know, as a parent, and I've heard it from so many other parents that you can have all these preconceptions about what it means to be a parent and the ideas you're going to have about how you will parent. And then essentially those get tossed out the window and the baby arrives and.

And you actually have to practice it and you actually have to do it in the midst of whatever is coming up for you and your partner, whatever.

Yeah, I think that that's true and...

Rick And Greg (57:47.81)

What I notice working with people at the moment is the...

the conscious differentiation that they've created in the way that they parent compared to their experience as a child. And that can go both ways. It's like, you know.

It's the, wanna replicate the parts that were great and change the parts that weren't kind of thing. And what that ratio is and completely individual with each experience. But it's interesting to see.

reality versus perception, perception before and then reality after down the track. I was like, how did I go? So with that hindsight, how did you go? I'm still going. Yeah, for sure. I'm still making mistakes. There are the key things that I wanted to change have been changed and not smoothly or, but in regards to time spent and connection and those sort of things were the key points for me.

And yeah, for me personally, that feels like it's heading in the right direction. I wasn't actually consciously thinking about that too much pre child, but it was in me. It was part of me because I had a lived experience of what my version of that growing up and what I got, you know, and it's interesting to see, like to talk about that lived experience and what's in you, what's

Rick And Greg (59:25.39)

what's felt, what's experiential versus like the stories we create around what we want to do, you know? And yeah, I don't think there's, what are you gonna say? Sorry, finish your thought and then I just want- No, no, there was not much else to it.

I just want to appreciate the raising of that previous perfectionism observation or the question, because I can even see in how I was speaking and then asking you this last question, how I expect myself to be the perfect parent going into this potential of creating a family. And it's like, well, that's a perfect way to shoot myself in the foot and really hinder.

a beautiful flourishing of the child and the family. Can you be an imperfect parent? Yeah, of course. Yeah. I mean, I'm going to be. So can I allow myself to be absolutely? you give yourself to me? And that's the thing around the that whole dance between I don't feel ready. But when when do you cross that finish line? When are you ready? That's right. And again, putting another pin in my

personality, let's call them, I don't want to say defects, but certainly predilections, you know, thinking that I need to be ready to do something. You're ready when you do it.

Ready,

Rick And Greg (01:01:00.728)

So I'm wondering what a step in a different direction looks like. A step in the, I know I'm not ready, but I'm gonna do it anyway. What does that look like in your life now? What would a step in that direction look like? Well, it's do anything. Really.

clearly I'm not going to do anything. The possibilities are near infinite if not actually. I love talking to you man. But I was talking to you about, yeah, just talk to my friend about doing care work. Because I do care about people and it's built into the job, right? That is what you are doing. You are taking care of people who can't do it otherwise for themselves. Yeah. And so...

where I feel that desire to go down that road has come from is from that piece of the literal piece. I don't necessarily have to do anything, at least in this moment. But what I want to do, what feels good for me is to choose a career path that involves both helping people and providing an income stream for me. And

The reason why I said do anything is because that's, you know, if we believe in the showing the universe you're ready kind of thing, or just showing your willingness to put yourself out there, putting myself out there, that's what it looks like is to do that, to do the thing. And.

I doubt that this friend will ever listen to this, but if he does, he'll get a laugh from the fact that way back when I was in my twenties in New York, he was always preaching to me action. You know, that was his mantra. the thing, do the thing. He, he didn't care what it was, but he had proven through his own actions, through his own life that he was able to make the life that he asked for, whether or not it's working out for him not. don't know. It seems like it is. it seems like he's happy.

Rick And Greg (01:03:11.244)

Yeah. And what is happiness? Blah, blah. It's kind of that idea of like failing forward, isn't it? Can I fail forward? Can I not have to nail every step? But it's only a failure based off of any set frame, isn't it? Yeah. And comes back to that whole okayness, you know, even after the quote unquote failure. Are you okay? Are you still here? Are you still alive? Yeah. Well, then you've made it. You're good.

Rick And Greg (01:03:42.498)

I don't want to this into a therapy session, but. I told you to be careful what you do. What's stopping you? What's stopping you moving forward? What's stopping you?

let's use that example of the support work, care work. Actually in that specific example, I'd say nothing. I've already actually initiated that I'm going to have a conversation with a friend who does that also reach out to two other people who I know who either do that or have friends who do it. So basically I think, especially in this area where it's very much needed, actually have more of a choice that would suit me and suit my

my lifestyle better as far as like taking on that work. So I'm already going down that track, but what's stopping me from, cause that's a pretty simple choice. It's maybe slightly larger in my view, but the bigger choice is.

taking the next step in this relationship. partner has made it very clear what her needs are. I told her.

pretty much at the beginning that I understood them and I'm with her on that.

Rick And Greg (01:05:10.35)

Again, there is nothing stopping me there because I know she's going to be a wonderful mother. I know that she's going to be able to raise this child, which with as much love as that kid deserves, especially as much as I wanted when I was a kid, you know, I got the, I got the very tainted love. Yeah. You know, I got love. There's no doubt, but I got a surplus amount of codependent needy love in mesh love, which, you know, we don't need to go down that whole path. But also I think.

Speaking to that it's like that's the gift that

you won't give your kid. That's right. That's the gift of the experience of like, that's the bit that I want to do differently. That's right. And to say that you won't give it, you know, probably a little bit extreme and absolute, but you have an awareness of what that looks like and an awareness to potentially want to do it differently. I, I would be fucking stoked to be raised by you and the wisdom that you have. Do you know what I mean? Sure. Thank you. I do know what you mean. I appreciate that. Yeah. and the reason why I even knew that I was

even remotely ready to be a father. There were a couple of anecdotes from this recent path that I've been on, which is now not even so recent, but I'd say back in 2018 when I was in India for that first time, when I met with that group, and then I found myself in the South and I saw a group of boys playing soccer on the beach. And I was like, at first thinking I want to play with them. I want to get on the field with them. But then I was like, no, actually I want to coach them. I want to, I want to tell them how to get it done. You know?

so I was like, I have something to offer these kids. That's not just, you know, in the realm of, have a dad, Yeah. And then on, I think it was my first of a past and a sit or my second, but basically just talking to myself as probably a parent or a mentor to a younger version of myself or to my future child. And I was like, yeah, I got this in me. Like I have this knowledge and wisdom that probably is so of some value.

Rick And Greg (01:07:16.598)

to a future version of myself. So cool. Like I never even had that desire or fantasy of being in that role because of, you know, the wounding that I had experienced. And just quietly, it's the fucking best job in the world. It is easily the highlight of my life. That's so beautiful to hear. Without a doubt. I love to hear that. So I'm the number one advocate for.

Being a being a father. I love hearing that. And I feel truly like heartfelt sorrow and empathy for those who don't feel that way. know, and I understand why people would arrive at that sense of experience, but yeah, you're, kind of echoing what my partner already basically says that she knows it's going to be essentially what you're talking about.

And so many others, you're not alone in that. So obviously it's just, it's great. And there's a funny little bit of ego in that cause it's like, you just get to hang out with a younger version of you, which is actually not true. My son's very different to me, but there's still a connection that you'll never have with any other human at any level. Yeah. No, maybe siblings that if you have more than one, but that, connection that you have with your child is like, you know, it's unexplainable. Totally.

Yeah. Well, I have no doubts that there's going to be a lot of similarities. If it's a boy, there's going to be a huge continuity of the, the gene line. Cause as my uncle told me just this past summer in America, me and my dad are basically like clones as much as I don't want to admit it. And I haven't talked much about my father, but you know, it's, he's such a beautiful man. So there could be a lot worse than that to be his, his dad. No, sorry to be his son.

actually so grateful that he's my father. Yeah, yeah, it's so funny. had a Christmas lunch yesterday with my family. My dad passed about March last year. And my brother is here from Melbourne. He's 10 years younger. And he's just got some of the most amazing characteristics of my dad. And it just makes me feel so good. That's great. And I just said to him, you just remind me of that. And yeah, the funny thing about my dad, he

Rick And Greg (01:09:42.991)

had some less than desirable characteristics. He's like, which bits? I'm like, the good bits, fine. Yeah, yeah. And you weren't just saying that. No, no, So it's so true. What about for yourself? you have any those? I definitely have some of the traits. Physically, my brother looks more in the face like him. But yeah, we have quite a lot of the same traits. Beautiful. And we are so fucking different. Like this world, he could not get his head around.

Right. So I liked that. Yeah. I think I remember hearing that sort of stuff. He was a cattle guy. Yeah. So, yeah. So farmer, old school farmer, cool. Could talk about cows and business and footy. Till the cows come home. Sorry, I couldn't help myself. Nah, it's appropriate. So yeah, there's some places in our personalities that were really similar. We're comfortable around new people and can converse. He had that gift.

And, this part of my world is like, whoa, what the fuck's going on there? What's an emotion? yeah, what it like never had any of that. So I just, it was part of that thing of accepting him for who he is, who he's not. Yeah. Yeah. So we got to do that for a past. that was cool.

so he did get to participate in some sort of container? More so, no, no, more so just we got to have honest conversations. And we didn't, he didn't pass with things that were not said. That's so, it's such a relief. Yeah. It was a real gift. And, it also, you know, it was probably the catalyst when he passed was the catalyst was like, okay, it's time to focus on what matters most. Like what does matter most to you and really like.

lock that in and it was a really big driving force from that experience because it's still lot of heaviness around it but it was also like all right let's go fucking live in a way that feels so aligned with me regardless of what other people think let's just do it and I'm super grateful for that because it's you know it shaped the last couple of years really what a beautiful gift yeah both and I guess it's in reflection to him but it was absolutely something you gave to yourself yeah

Rick And Greg (01:12:06.318)

Yeah. So cool. And I think it's such a strong and beautiful dynamic, the father son dynamic. Father daughter. Father son, course.

And yeah, you know, being running a circle and being in, we've got a lot of dads, well, the nearly all dads will be after next month. And it's really beautiful to see like that differentiation between what they got and what they want to give and where that changes. And it's really nice to see men actually consciously thinking about that. And owning the bits that they fuck up on, owning the bits that is their dad coming through, you know.

all the little parts that are associated with the messiness of parenthood, you know, the imperfection of parenthood. The integrated masculine, which you're helping to usher in. Yeah, it's really beautiful to see. Really? Yeah. I'm still in awe. I'm to sit with people who are actively working on that. I'm just like, fuck, this is cool. This is the dream.

Yeah. Yeah. You're part of it. I love that. Yeah. So, yeah, I didn't, I didn't realize there was so much fatherhood stuff that's really alive for me. Yeah. There's a lot there. I've never seen you with your son, but from what you've told me, it's, it's a beautiful relationship and I'm so stoked for him to see what's in store in the next week.

Context there's a 60 kilo box of table tennis table in the podcast studio that I'm putting up today so I can surprise him tomorrow. So. That was something I think I shared with both my dad but also just coming up. yeah, like that's those small moments are gonna be the hugest things down the line. Yeah, so cool. We often connect the most when we're doing something like whether it's out hiking or even just doing something local or going to the beach. And that's just another version of that.

Rick And Greg (01:14:14.958)

and being able to have something easy that we can be doing, also connect. And I'm taking some incredible inspiration from you both before this and now to, yeah, take that energy and run with it. That this is what I've said I want and what I know I want to act on it now and to do things, whether it be a daughter or son or both. Yeah. Well,

how do we wanna measure the accountability of that? Do we wanna have you back mid next year and you know? Yeah, we'll check what our status is? No pressure, but sure. Absolutely. Accountability, you know, that's a loaded word. concept, isn't it? Yeah, but no, I love it, I love it. And that's what I think men need to do for each other is hold each other accountable. That's what true friends are there for. It's an interesting concept.

I need, work better.

when I have someone else holding me accountable. That was an old version of me. And I used to think it was everything. was like, if I can be accountable, if I can express what I'm gonna do to someone else, that means I'll do it. And when I realized that that was just the people pleasure in me. So it was me wanting the other person to see me through a good set of eyes, to see me in a favorable way. But it got you to where you are now, right? it fucking worked. So it was like, I feel like it's loaded. I think actually Jator's made me bit of a list just around the...

the shame that's associated with that, like the shame of not doing the thing and having someone else see you not do the thing. And I'm really conscious of catching when I motivate either myself or others by shame. I think it's weaponized and it's weaponized in a way that people don't even realize. So I'm really conscious of just like, can we make ourselves accountable? And what does that look like?

Rick And Greg (01:16:22.518)

as part of like, you know.

that whole dynamic versus himself versus other. Yeah, and not through the shaming, but yeah, and not through the pushing, through being pulled towards it. I'm worthy. Because I'm enough and I deserve this life. I deserve this part that matters most to me. Yeah. Rather than wanting to prove to someone else that I can do it or prove that I've, you know, I can succeed by having this or that. Such a big difference.

And I was caught in that. Absolutely. And you asked me before, what's the program of being a father or whatever it is that's driving me. Who's pushing me to that? standards, yeah. So there's the people pleasing even when the people aren't there. Yeah. Yeah.

Rick And Greg (01:17:18.862)

This has been a fun chat. Agreed. Yeah. And appreciated. I'm sliding further down in my couch chair because I'm obviously getting super comfortable. I am attempting to wrap these up in under 90 minutes just for consumption sake. I appreciate it. Yeah. Gravity. Let's do it. Yeah. But I do like, and you've kind of answered this throughout the last hour or so.

But as we sit here right now, which may have changed, as we sit here now.

What are you really excited about?

Rick And Greg (01:17:58.019)

The thing I love going with the first thing that comes to my mind with these types of questions. So it has to be music, which is an under developed aspect of my life. And I sent this to my partner the other day, but it's kind of one of these cliche, but true questions, you know, in the shamanic communities, they would say, when did you stop?

singing, when did you stop dancing? When did you stop being entertained by stories or whatever it is? And for me, it's like the singing and the dancing and, for a huge part of my life, it's not making music. You know, I had that early on in my life, but I didn't take it to its highest potential. And so what excites me is getting back into that. have a couple of instruments and DJ decks and, know, it's just what lights me up and

As my partner said today and in past days, it's like, it's so easy to turn around our view of what's happening in our lives simply by doing what's joyous and expressive. You know, it's, not an escape through fun, but it's, it's an enlivening and a rejuvenation. I love that. So I'm excited about music and all the forms that it can take in my life, both the tangible ones of making it.

mixing it, playing it for others, you know, thematically making this the song of my life, singing the song of my life.

Rick And Greg (01:19:43.683)

Yeah, that's nice, singing the song of my life. Yeah. I've really noticed this year in myself how much joy I've got from dancing again. I danced a lot in my twenties and it was under the under the cloak of nightclubs and drinking and drugs and all the rest of it. But I loved it. Sure. And I'm giving myself permission to bring that part out again and actually really enjoy it without too much.

I have very little judgment of what it looks like, but just to feel and yeah, I'm going to be searching that out more this next year as well. Yeah. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the Bacchanalian, you know, indulgence. Obviously it has its time and place, but also of course we have the ecstatic dance community and that's really cool. I haven't been a part of that recently, although I loved it when I got involved, but what I want to see more of, and I guess this would be a challenge to us both.

is to really go for it in our ecstatic dance experiences in the future. So whether that be, you know, we set a time to find a dance nearby or whatever, but the next time you're in a dance, I really encourage you to just let it loose, let it rip. Because that was for me on the island of Copangán when I first really got into the dance, the absolute primalness of just.

being drenched in sweat, like losing your absolute mind and having other people be taken up in that wave and you're joining that wave. It's like, there's nothing better.

That's cool. If I was to ask myself the question, what's exciting me right now? I'll ask you. What's exciting you right now? Thanks, man.

Rick And Greg (01:21:37.55)

What I really think of, there's so much going on next year that I'm super excited about. But I wanna be more present than that, because it's like right now.

And what's really true is like, I'm actually really excited about putting that fucking table tennis table up and having my son walk through the door and surprising tomorrow. That's what I'm excited about. So sweet. So beautiful. That's so true. The big things next year, know, the study, the work, the podcast, the relationships, the house, all the stuff that's happening that's been ticking away. But yeah, it's more that the little.

It's the thing he's faced when he walks in and it's those things that are actually really excited about that matter most to me. Exactly. Yeah. Such a, another cliche, but it's those small moments that the little things that make our life. Yep. Yep. We just got to pay attention. I love it. Thank you for that reminder. What an awesome way to finish. Agreed. Thank you so much for making the effort to come here. My pleasure. Much love to you, my friend. Can't wait to do more of this. And you. Thanks, mate.