Episode 14: Rewriting the story of being too much with Claire Baker

Show notes.

Claire Baker is a hell of a human. 

A ridiculously accomplished academic, author and change-maker in a professional sense, Claire is insanely intelligent and has found it safer to keep the entirety of her brilliance under wraps for most of her life. To avoid being too big or too much for other people to save them from feeling uncomfortable.

In this podcast, she shares her story of growing up looking through this lens and how it has shaped much of he life.

If you have ever felt like you are too much for those around you, then this conversation is for you. 

Leave a comment and let me know how this one lands…

Connect with Rick: ⁠https://www.rickwatson.com.au⁠

Connect with Claire: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/tige1001/

Keywords

podcast, personal growth, emotional health, Christmas, relationships, self-discovery, achievement, authenticity, mental health, year-end reflections, relationships, vulnerability, trauma, healing, self-care, trust, boundaries, personal growth, emotional health, resilience

Transcript

Rick And Claire (00:02.318)

Claire Baker. Rick Watson. Welcome back to the podcast. Thank you for having me back. At this exact time last week, we sat here and did this exact thing. Yes, and as you just said, I'm trusting it was a legit, the audio didn't work and not a like, that was the worst podcast I've ever heard in my life. I'm just going to delete it. I was frustrated.

So yeah, for those don't know, we recorded this last week and no one will ever hear that conversation. Yeah. Cause my audio screwed up. So yeah, I'm blaming the internet gods, but yeah, let's hopefully we can get through. And I think it always the second time's a little bit better because we've had a dry run. Yeah. I feel more comfortable this week. I was pretty nervous last week and not sure what to expect, but then we got to the end of it and I was like, that was, that's just chatting with Greg. That was great. So yeah, it was.

I feel more of a sense of fun coming in this week than the first time. So obviously there's something else we needed to say that people need to hear. So definitely, definitely. And it's a week closer to Christmas. I think it's what the 19th today. So yeah, it's getting close. We're both wrapping up our working weeks this week. Yeah, we are. You're wrapped already. I'm pretty wrapped. Yeah. I'll have, I'm just on call in case something urgent comes up. But other than that, I'm hopefully not opening my laptop again, which is very nice.

Yeah, yeah, I've got clients until Monday. So, right. there. Sneaking them in. Yeah. All right. As per normal, let's do a little check in how it is to be clear physically, mentally, emotionally right now. Physically, mentally, emotionally. Physically, I feel really wrecked. I had an iron infusion a couple of days ago and I just think my body just needs to sleep for a couple of days straight to that

Simmer, kick in, soak up. Yeah, I've had a difficult year health-wise and I don't feel good in my body at the moment. So yeah, not great physically, just tired and heavy and just not really myself. So yeah, just rolling with that. Mentally, I'm pretty tired. Like I had a huge few days trying to wrap things up to get ready for, to have a decent break.

Rick And Claire (02:28.078)

Yeah, and it's been a big work year. So yeah, there was a lot to tie up, but that was good. And so I'm feeling fine mentally, but just tired, guess. Emotionally, as we've hinted at already this morning when I got here, yeah, I think it's just this time of year. There's like a lot of, you know, bits and pieces that come to the surface. What was your term? My term was the ghost of Christmas past.

I think we can leave it at that. Leave it with that? Or even leave it with that. I'll leave it with that. think you said lead with that. No, no. Everyone has their version of the ghosts of Christmas past. Truly, truly. And so, yeah, just some sparky little messages and memories rolling around this week. so maybe just a little tender emotionally. Cool.

The joys of Christmas. It's such an interesting time. was talking to Joe about yesterday. Like the effort that goes into wrapping up the year and then transitioning from that into Christmas preparations, presents, social organizing, like hyper organizing essentially. Yes. And then the assumption of rest. Yeah. Yeah. But your body's so like wound up. Wired. Absolutely. And it's like, I was talking to a client of the day and it's just like,

they're feeling guilty that they don't feel like they can rest. I'm like, well, you know, we've all been like pushing and then we just go, okay, let's turn it off. Yes. It is the holidays. Be relaxed. I'm like, can you give yourself permission to be clunky and feel a bit guilty? Yeah. When you start to rest. That's nice. Yeah. Yeah. It's not going to be like, okay, throw out the chair.

Absolutely and an alternative to like, let's just drink a ton of alcohol to numb and pretend that we're relaxing, but actually we're just numb. Yeah. So you're saying I can't do that? Is what you're saying? Well, I'll be right there next to you, Rixie. I have a lot of driving responsibilities this Christmas, so I think I'm going to be a very, maybe boxing day.

Rick And Claire (04:35.407)

Yeah, nice, nice. No, I'm definitely, even though I think there'll be some alcohol-free time in 2025 for me, yeah, I think not over Christmas. I had a very nice martini last night to kick it off and yeah, I'm happy with my choices over the Christmas period. No, I'm with you on that. If I was going to check in, I would probably say my body is...

It's not that happy. It's a bit grumpy. I have not been paying great attention and effort to looking after it this year. And it is letting me know that. It's like, hey, fucker. It's time to me some attention. yeah, various little, I just think my system as a whole is a bit inflamed. Me too. Totally. Yeah. So there's just a lot of inflammation related.

fuckery going on. Totally hear you. Yep. So let's go drink some alcohol Rick. sounds like a great idea. It's the perfect smell. If we do it in a sauna, does that help? Only if we have an ice bath after. Mentally, I feel...

Rick And Claire (05:53.677)

I feel really blessed mentally. that it? I love that. That's great. I don't know if blessed is, grateful. Let's go with grateful. Okay. Just, I think we were talking about it before, just the wrapping up of the year. We had our last men's circle on Monday night and reflecting with clients this week about, you know, what they've been through and what they've learned and how things are looking through different eyes, so to speak. And it's just really, I'm just grateful I get to like hang out with those people. Nice.

So that's probably the...

I'm sort of basking in the afterglow of that mentally. Yeah. So that's good. And it's, it's buffering the, the Christmas fuckery as in like the organization and the, cause we're, we're doing our very best not to start packing up our house before Christmas, but the list of things, the list of things to do are getting longer. I'm like, so yeah, we're just holding off on that emotionally feel.

Calm, peaceful. Sweet. Relaxed. He's relaxed in emotion. Let's make it one. I don't know. What did we say last week? Equanimous. yes. So you feel equanimous. Is that how you say it? Equanimous. Equanimity. Equanimous. Yeah. So yeah, there's a little bit of equanimity floating around. Wow. Ideal state. Yeah, we'll take that. Take that for sure.

Okay. It's so funny because we feel like we've had this conversation. Yeah. But for everyone else's benefit. Yeah. Let's have it again. Okay. How do we know each other? Yeah, as we brought up last week, I have, was very, very fortunate to meet the beautiful Lucy that's also been a podcast guest of yours. Slater. Lucy Slater in a book club and you know, the beautiful work that she does.

Rick And Claire (07:56.911)

follow her on Instagram, she reposted something of yours, I started following you. And Stalker. Yeah, totally. And yeah, that's just around the time you lost your dad and you're, you know, talking, you're being really open about your experiences of losing your dad. And I lost my dad in really sudden circumstances when I was 30. And so it's a really, like, it's a really big.

life-changing experience and the way you spoke about it was really, I really connected with that and I was like, yeah, like I like this guy, he's talking about the big stuff and I really connected to that and I think I got in contact and then we just sort of ran into each other at pickleball or whatever and then this time last year I joined your program. What was it called again? Reboot. Reboot, I was gonna say reconnect, reboot, reboot.

Yeah, after like a big year last year. And as I mentioned last, last week, we were having sort of a twin experience of, we both lost our license. did. We are naughty. So I, we, I was just a few weeks behind you. we were like, yeah. Connecting over or just getting our steps up and like, I really want to go to the beach. Cool.

So that was about what November last year, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah. It seems a long time ago. It seems like a lifetime ago. I know, I just hear one of those people that I feel like I've known forever. Like I just, I really do feel that with you. So yeah, it's really weird to sit down and think that was a year ago. yeah. Yeah, it's wild. What was going on for you a year ago? What called you to do the reboot thing? It was a big year. It was a year.

The year this started off with like a very, you know, intentional separation from my partner and just reclaiming my independence, not dating at all, just really having a year to sort myself out. then throw in a little license loss and, yeah, thank you. And yeah, I just, it was a big year last year of just.

Rick And Claire (10:21.206)

spending time by myself, trying to find my feet, really getting to know myself as an independent person outside of relationship, because I'd been in relationship one way or another for most of my adult life. So living in my little house and yeah, that was a new experience. And so it was a nice way to sort of end the year to have a more structured look at all the different facets of life and...

rebooting how I was thinking about those. So yeah, it was a really good time. just hearing other people's experiences of everyone who struggles with this kind of stuff. And that was really helpful. Yeah, cool. was the, looking back now, because it's kind of 12 months now, it's been since then. Yeah. How was that year of kind of self? I guess it was the year of self. What was that like for you? Like, what did you learn from that?

Yeah, well this year has been like my second year of self. Just kind of kept rolling it into this year and yeah, just had that echoed experience of yeah, so the three months this time last year of losing my license and not being able to drive but being able to walk everywhere. And then in April, I broke my foot and was able to drive but unable to walk.

anywhere. it was really, so it was, it's been an unexpected year because yeah, I thought I was ready to go and it was all going to happen and that really slowed me down and it really made me realize that going for a run or going for a huge walk on the beach or just a big walk anywhere is a really calming like integral part of how I manage my life. I have a really

high pressure job. I love the high pressure job. You know, it's awesome. But I do realize that I need to balance that. And breaking my foot really just was a slap in the face about how independent I am, needing to learn how to ask for help. And just, yeah, physically, it really knocked me. Yeah. I think I'm still sort of recovering from the impacts of that. It was a big time. I definitely feel

Rick And Claire (12:42.211)

the importance of our body being functional in order for us to process life. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. And just like dealing with pain and dealing with the loss of independence. Yeah. It wasn't just physical. It was definitely emotional and mental as well for me. And I thought I was going fine. You know, I was like...

month in and like this is great but three months of a boot and crutches and a lot of pain it was just a long time and yeah it got me by the end. And I think we were catching up for coffee the other day and one of the things that really jumped out to me was

the part of you that you're really owning in your job. I have a bit of backstory on that, but I'd love to hear the story from you or just around that part of you that's amazing at achieving and yeah, at achieving in all capacities, but the need that you learn early on to like, it's not that safe to let that part out in its full extent.

And how that impacted your work? Yeah, like I think it's impacted my life really fundamentally and you know, hooray for finally understanding it at 45. We get there eventually. exactly. Yeah, I had this like the experience growing up of sort of simultaneously being expected to be excellent and to achieve because that was that was kind of my thing. I, you know,

was very fortunate, you know, to be born with a, like, I have a really high IQ. I was in the gifted and talented program at school and I was just like a right little nerd. Like I just love school and I, was so, it was kind of easy for me. It was like a really fun thing. Like I, we lived a long way out of town and so our school bus ride was, was really long. And, one of my school teachers was on the same bus run and she would literally give me everyone else's

Rick And Claire (15:01.718)

like spelling test to mark on the bus. And I thought that was awesome. It was like my favourite thing to do was to mark everyone's spelling test. not in like a... That's like new nerd status. That's like next level nerd status. Next level nerd status. Yeah, look in year three, was like dictation where everyone like she'd read out, the teacher would read out words and the words you got wrong became your spelling list for the week.

but I'd get all of them right. And so after everyone else finished, I would have to go up the front and the teacher would just randomly open the dictionary at pages and call out a word until we could find a list. and it's, there's no moral good or bad in that. was just how I was born. so achieving it, you know, academic work or whatever is something my brain likes to do. Like it's just, I have a proficiency at it. And, and so there were parts of,

you know, like growing up that I was sort of expected to be achieving this really high level and it was a source of pride. Who was expecting you to achieve at that level? I think my mum and dad really enjoyed that I was good at stuff. So it was, and we lived in a small town, so it was kind of bragging rights type stuff, which is, I guess, natural and teachers. So I had a really strong sense of expectation from

the school, because we were in a really small town. so, so I ended up leaving school at the end of year 11. And my school principal rang me in the school holidays and was like, what are you doing with your life? We need you to be here to get your result because it's going to make the school look good. So what are you doing? Like, so was like on my shoulders that, and I I think a big part of why I left at the end of year 11 was because I couldn't take the pressure of everyone expecting me to get perfect marks. So was actually easier to leave than it was to deal with that.

that pressure. So like my maternal grandparents were really academic, they had really high expectations. So on the one side I was sort of taught to be proud and to live up to these expectations but then was also given the message that I should keep that in check and be a bit ashamed of it. So there were a lot of contexts in which I was

Rick And Claire (17:27.424)

It made people uncomfortable. Like it made lots of people uncomfortable. we sort of have a blended family. And so there was a bit of a, like, just keep it in the box. Like, don't, you know, don't show off that kind of thing. And so, and not that I was, but, know, I would, yeah, it was like this constant dance that not to be too proud of anything.

and to kind of be bit embarrassed about it and keep it low profile at the right times. And as we talked about last week, I had this really big conversation a couple of weeks ago with someone talking about that shame is the flip side of pride. And that was so profound for me because I realized there's lots of different ways in my life that I don't know how to navigate the middle path between

being proud and like simultaneously feeling ashamed of it. And that's really tricky. And it's meant that there's been lots of times in my life where instead of celebrating success or achievement, I've just sort of swallowed it and kept it quiet and never really owned that part of me. Cause it's just a natural part of me. I have a big brain and I love the challenge. And so getting back to your question around work is that

what's happened for me this year is I was given like a huge opportunity. Before you go there, I just put a pin in the work story because that's the next part of it. just want to just, there's some bits there that are jumping out at me. Just that whole flip side of pride and shame. Yeah. And because what I'm hearing is that like you, your adaption was to...

stay a little bit smaller than you wanted to in order to not feel the experience of shame that came from being proud of what you were doing. Does that sound right? Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's, that's it. And I think that adaptation that, you know, I think that creative adaptation in Gestalt, taught me this last week, survival strategy was to

Rick And Claire (19:43.757)

whether it be in family, in friendships, in relationships, in whatever it was, to show a certain part of me and never be all of me in those circumstances. So, you know, I had friendships where, like, you know, when I was doing all my study, like I, so it took me 10 years to do my undergrad, because I, you know, had kids and was working and stuff. But all my friends through that,

period never really knew or understood what I was doing. And I was getting HDs, was getting scholarships, I was getting, and I never really talked about it. I had like uni life and real life and like these different segments of me that I would shine when I was at uni, but not really talk about my home life. And then I'd be a really good friend in my friendships, but never talk about uni. And I mean, there's lots of different examples I could give. sounds tiring. That's tiring.

Yeah, was tiring. And it also just means that, yeah, there was, and the thing I shared with you last week, which I think is worth resharing again, is the observation I had was that I've been really, really good at being a Rubik's cube. can't say it this week. you got it. Rubik's cube. So that I can flick it around and be the perfect thing.

because I do have this constant expectation from others and from myself that I excel at that thing, but that necessarily means that all the other colors are kind of hidden while you're that one color. a really good analogy. It's a really good analogy, isn't it? And she said, so you can flick around and be the perfect person in this job role, or you can be the perfect friend over here, or you can be the blah, blah, whatever it might be.

that actually I should be aiming to be a disco ball, which does sound a bit naff, but I do like the analogy because it's sparkly and there's lots of different parts, like there's pieces of light and pieces of darkness and it's moving and it's alive. It's not this hard. There's no corners in a circle. There's no corners in a circle. There's nowhere to hide. And also I think like you need the light of others to...

Rick And Claire (22:03.994)

You know, a disco ball is nothing without light shining on it. So, you it's also relational. I really like that. So, yeah, I've been reflecting on that a lot. so, yeah, just integrating those different parts of myself into a whole human and being able to be proud of the things I do and owning it and enjoying it, which...

getting back to the work story is that that's what's happened this year is that I found myself in this job, which is really interesting and really challenging. And my brain is on fire. Like I love it. I'm solving problems. I'm the person everyone comes to when she is going down. I, know, it's, it's really, really varied and complex and hard and my brain just loves it. And so I was talking to,

I was very lucky a friend of mine offered to be an executive coach like with work. And we were really trying to get to the core of like, what is it about the job that you like? Like, why is this job the job that's like lighting you up? And what we really got down to is that there's no need, no space, no tolerance for masking. It's just like, go hard, do an excellent job and like just go for it.

And it's that unmasking of being able to be excellent at stuff and going, hell yeah, like I can do this and owning it. And I think really like for the first time since I was that little kid being like a nerd about her spelling test and thinking like, I love spelling. I love doing that. It's really the first time since that that I've really gone like.

I really like this and that's through like, got awards for my PhD. got a wall. What was the age gap from when you were in grade three to now? After we took last week, realized so years ago, someone said to me, like put up a photo somewhere in your house of the last time you felt really just joyous and happy, like a photo of yourself as a young person and my photo, which I still have on like a shelf in my room.

Rick And Claire (24:16.43)

is a photo like the standard school photo where I'm like, I think it's year one. So I'm like seven or eight and I'm just grinning my face off. Like there's books behind me. I'm in my school uniform. Total 100 % nerd. But I look at it like when I notice it, I'm like, yeah, little me. Like I hadn't learned to be ashamed of it yet. And I just love to like, it's just who I am. And so yeah, that's. I hadn't learned to be ashamed of it yet. Yeah.

It's really powerful sentence. Yeah. And so to answer your question, like almost 40 years is the gap in age. It's crazy. And it's, it's like, can be sad about that, but we can also see the other side of it. Like, I could have gone the rest of my life and not felt that. absolutely. Absolutely. And we talked last week about like, it took me, I don't even know how long at work to actually put doctor.

Claire Baker like in my email signature. Cause like even at work, I was like a bit ashamed of the fact that I'd done this. And then was talking to someone like, why the hell do you not let everyone know that you should be proud of that. And it's directly relevant to your work here. What, why? Like, wow, this is just so deeply ingrained in me to just like stay in this little box and don't offend every, don't make other people feel uncomfortable. Keep everybody calm because keeping everybody calm.

keeps me safe.

Yeah. And I think I'm just thinking about people listening to this. Yeah. And it's like, cause the theme in here is like, don't be too big in order to make sure that everyone else is uncomfortable. Yeah. And I know I've had a version of that and I'm just thinking about, you know, sometimes when we have sensitivities, it's like I,

Rick And Claire (26:15.682)

Sometimes I feel like I'm too much or sometimes I feel like I'm not enough. And I think there's examples on both ends, but this is like, sometimes I think I'm too much, you know, and that will make people feel insecure, uncomfortable, know, not enough themselves. And that whole pride shame thing is still like that front of mind for me. I think I have a version of that.

And it was, it's probably not a dissimilar timeframe of like around 40 years. I'm a little bit older than you, much, but a little bit. But I remember being an early teenager, like year seven or eight or something at school and talking up some of my sporting achievements, whatever, to my friends and getting shot down. And like the tall poppy thing of like, you'd just talk yourself up and that sort of stuff.

the shame of that and realizing after our conversation last week that the shame of that has actually carried through a lot of my life of not wanting to share my achievements because there was a bruise there from that experience. And when I did share the experience, the fear was that that bruise would get pressed on. And...

I was reflecting on it during the week. It's kind of cool that we can have a conversation a week apart. But I was reflecting on it and like, this podcast is an expression of just having a voice again. And I'm not looking at it through an eye of like, I'm talking myself up. This is just who I am. And I think the realisation this year has been I'm more comfortable being who I am and owning all of me. The good, the bad, the indifferent.

And it feels like that, I didn't use the word pride, but it's like, it's pretty much fits. As opposed to the shame of not wanting to make others feel uncomfortable by speaking up. Cause I think the bruise that you're talking about is actually like, it's even more primal and like fundamental for us. Cause I think it's about social exclusion. 100%.

Rick And Claire (28:41.357)

Like that you could just be rejected by your friend. If you make people feel too uncomfortable about themselves or, or whatever, the risk is that they just, that you can be socially excluded. And so in order to keep included and be kept in the tribe and stuff like that, you conform and you, you know, and so it's like, it's really, it's a big deal. No wonder it left a bruise. And that's the dance, isn't it? It's like working out where the edges are of like what, what's safe to say in order for me to belong.

versus what's enough, like what's not enough. Like if I don't speak, I don't belong. So where's the middle ground? Yes, absolutely. And I think what was so hard for me anyway was that that belonging, was kind of, I needed to excel to belong, but I needed to not talk about it to belong. It was just like a dance, talk about a dance. Like, yeah, yeah.

It's a conditional belonging on all fronts. you know, it's, yeah. So what, and then if we peel back another layer, like what's really at the core of that? Yeah, I think it's that sense of,

you know, it's about that sense of belonging and being lovable, I think, is that, you know, to like forming myself into a shape to be loved. Because, yeah, it was, you know, it's that thing about like, belong if. Yeah, it's conditional worthiness, isn't it? It's conditional worthiness. Totally. That's the phrase that I needed.

to hear. like it's, and so I belong if I'm achieving, but only if. I also belong if I don't talk about it. I don't talk about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or I belong if I'm achieving, only if I'm achieving, but I also only belong if I don't make other people feel unsafe. Yeah, because of my achievement. Because of my achievement. So yeah, it's been a...

Rick And Claire (30:52.547)

Like it's a long time coming right to get to the point. a cool knot to untangle though isn't it? It is a knot to untangle. That's a good way to put it. Yeah. Yeah and no doubt I will be untangling for the rest of my life. know like I don't mean to sound as if I've got it sorted but I've really felt empowered in the last few months and that's the last time we had coffee I was just like god damn I'm having fun. Yeah. Because seriously and since I was that nerdy little eight-year-old. Eight-year-old got to play. Yeah and now I'm getting to do it again and I'm

at working with people at a level that they've got no tolerance for like being deferential or being, you know, like they just expect you to do the best and like, there's not enough time or the stakes are so high, but it's like gloves off, go hard. And I just love it. So good. Yeah. Yeah. That, that characteristic is nourished and encouraged. Yeah. And people like worry, like when I put my hand up for it, cause it was

you know, not many people put their hand up because it's a scary job, right? Like it's a really high pressure and high stakes and stuff. And they were like, God, that sounds terrifying. Why would you ever want to do that job? And I was like, makes me happy. Like, just, I think that sounds like an amazing challenge. And they were like, okay, you're insane. Like maybe, maybe I am, but I was right. Like I got into the role and I would have, it would have gone up in flames if it hadn't worked because you know, you do have to just like be on.

But yeah, it's just the right thing and it gives me energy. Like that high pressure work actually doesn't take energy from me. It gives me energy. And that's been so novel. yeah, it's good. And it's the really cool part is like, there's, you've found an environment where you can be aligned with who you really are. Yeah. Yeah. And that obviously gives you energy because you've had to hide that part of you in some capacity for so long. Yeah. That masking takes...

energy. Yeah. Like it really does. And then when you don't have to do it, it's like, all right, fuckers, let's go. Let's go. Yeah, no, truly. It's been really liberating, like really, really. And it's like, I just said to my boss yesterday, signing off for the year, you know, this has been the best job I've ever had. Like I just love it. And this is the best job ever. Yeah. Yeah. And it's at the moment, it's only temporary. So it's the other like shadow in it is that

Rick And Claire (33:16.142)

I was stepping into a role that someone might be coming back to in March. that hence the executive coach of figuring out, okay, what is it about this job that we can take into other jobs or what's the next job that I'll be looking for that can give me the same feeling? So there's, I'm sure there'll be more opportunities and stuff, but yeah, it's quite bittersweet because I'm like, I love this. please don't end. yeah, we'll see what happens in 2025. So I'm curious.

I'm trying not to my coaching hat on here because that's juicy ground right there. But just the question of, yeah, how do you take this alignment? Because it's kind of like, I'm picturing the Rubik's cube being the old model of like, changed myself to fit the role. Like, how do you bring Claire and her disco ball to the next role? this is totally the challenge, right? I don't know yet is the answer to that.

And last week we talked about like having a word for the year. yeah. And I talked about that my word for the year is going to be integration. Next year. Next year for 2025 is integration, which talks to this, you know, integrating the full disco ball in whatever job I find myself in. So integration. But since then, maybe this is why the whole thing got deleted and we had to do it again. It's actually more than integration. I'm going for reclamation.

reclamation. Like reclaiming these parts of myself. So it's not just about integrating them. Yeah, yeah. It is that, but it's reclaiming them as a strength. Whether that's my physical health, my, you work, my sense of fun, sense of adventure, all these things that have been taking a backseat. So yeah, it's like going that little bit next level. And the challenge about doing that at work is absolutely going to be

a challenge for next year. Yeah. And I don't know yet. What are the parts? I'm just that word reclamation. Yeah. Yeah. came to me over last week. Because it's that it gives a really clear picture of like these parts are already there and I want I want to be courageous enough to bring them out. Yeah. And they haven't come out for various reasons for a while. Yeah.

Rick And Claire (35:39.811)

I'm wondering what that looks like in relationship, like whether it's with kids or partners or friends or what do you need to reclaim that's maybe masked a little bit? Yeah, that's a really good question. I do think that's a big part of getting back to who I really am. Like we were talking before about, like I've had a year of intentional solitude and then this year's been...

pretty much a second year of intentional solitude. And part of what, you know, breaking my foot did for me was realize like this independence thing is great. And it's, there are huge, huge fun things about being independent and doing my own thing. But actually like relationship is an intimate, like what's the word? Like just really honest, authentic connection.

is something I really miss. Like I do want to do life in partnership and I've had various partnerships over my life, including two marriages. So obviously I'm geared towards. You're up for it. Yeah, like I'm the hopeless romantic that just keeps thinking. Anyway, the last two years I've been testing that because yeah, obviously it's been a painful little road in and out of those relationships. So I've

been testing that out. But the place I've gotten to by this time now is to be thinking, yeah, like, I think that's how I want to do life. I like being in partnership and it's not something to be thought of as something that's painful and needs to be avoided. It's actually something to be celebrated and to find the good stuff. Also the hard stuff, you know, the good stuff doesn't come easy, but

Yeah, just opening back up to that is important because I think I've been quite shut down to that. Yeah. Over the last couple of years. So you've kind of had two years of solo time, I guess. In reflection of those two years, what did you learn about yourself looking back about how you've done relationships in the past? And it doesn't have to be specific, but just some characteristics that you know have shown up as patterns that you would like not to.

Rick And Claire (38:06.794)

automatically jump into moving forward. Yeah, I think and we've talked previously about, think have pretty strong rescuer tendencies that have come through and as a very dear friend said to me this year. So the way I broke my foot this year is that I was at home working from home, didn't have any shoes on. There's a massive car accident on our street and I broke my foot running to help.

So, and one of my lovely friends said, Claire, your rescue attendancy is getting you into trouble again. Nice observation. Like harming myself in my over eagerness to be helping somebody else. And I think that's a nice analogy for what's happened to me in many of my relationships. And I think that's actually been a form of distraction from my own life.

And actually probably part of this, like, it's kept me very, very busy. Like a lot of energy and time has gone to helping, in inverted commas, my various partners in different ways. You know, I've had partners that have struggled with addiction, partners that have had very serious PTSD, partners that have been tying themselves up in knots. And so I've sort of dedicated...

a lot of my time in life to helping them in their struggle rather than focusing on my life and putting energy back into me. you know, I became a mom when I was 21. You know, I've been a mom my whole life as well. And so I think one of the patterns I don't want to do again is I don't want to step into a relationship that takes the focus off of me and my life.

and becomes a caring situation again. And I don't, like, I think it's been subconscious. I don't think I intentionally sought out partners, you know, that would keep me distracted from my own life. I bet that's what's happened. And there's some really deep patterns there about like why that might be a thing. you know, taking care of caregivers in the past has obviously laid some patterns down for what I'm like as an adult.

Rick And Claire (40:30.146)

So yeah, I wanna just be being really honest with myself going into a relationship and thinking about, yeah, being aware of those patterns and yeah, it's really scary. Like going into a new relationship after you've had some bad ones and also after you've been alone for a while. It's really hard and yeah. What's the fear? I think the fear is being vulnerable again and like getting hurt again.

It's been a messy road, particularly my second marriage.

like I'm still like the the health issues that I'm having now this year. I really are the slow motion effects of what happened to me then. Like it was a really profoundly stressful time. I was in the last six months of doing my PhD. I had a hundred thousand words to write. That thought just drives me. Yeah. So six months from the end of I had to submit because I was on a scholarship. I like mortgage three kids. Like it was just

I had to do it in that time. And of course what happened, but my relationship ended, my marriage dissolved in the most painful of ways. You know, he was, he was cheating on me and I didn't know. And I found out and it was so horribly painful and hurt on so many different levels, but I just couldn't stop. I had to just suck it up. And so I had to sell my house. I had to like,

you know, the kids, wonderful dad took the kids back in full time. I moved into a cabin at the back of a friend's caravan park, put all my stuff in storage. ex, my first husband actually even took back the cat, looked after the cat and the kids. The kids would come for sleepovers on the weekends, but, and I just had to sit down in my raw human, just pain and desolation and like, the hell has my life come to and smash out a PhD.

Rick And Claire (42:36.429)

And I did, like I didn't just hand it in on time, which is rare. Like a lot of people don't get their PhD done in three years, but I did. And I like my referee reports were so good. Like my, normally what happens is it's examined by three different people and then there's comments and you have to rejig it and then resubmit it. And then you eventually graduate. Like I submitted at the end of May and I graduated in October because I just had no...

I had like three full stops basically to change. So, and then I got like the Chancellor's Award for it and I got offered a book contract with a major publisher. So it was like, I didn't just scrape in. Through the hardest time. the hardest time of my life. But of course the thing that I ignored through all of that was my body. I got extremely ill. I lost like 15 kilos in very short period of time, completely ruined my gut microbiome.

I lived on coffee and scotch basically. just pretended I didn't have a physical form to just drive at home. And it was the dark night of the soul for sure. It was so hard to come out the other end of that.

So yeah, I guess. And still cleaning up the remnants of that. Physically, in terms of, you know, lot of the problems I've had this year, I have a digestive disorder, have like all these things that are slow motion impacts of that extreme stress and extreme weight loss. Yeah, think relationally, being scared again of like, you know,

Repeating. Really repeating that. like, you know, I lost everything. I lost everything. And I had to scrape myself up from like truly like the bottom of the barrel to make myself a human again. felt like, like it really, really was hard. And I'm scared of that ever happening again. think it's a pretty fucking valid fear. Yeah. You know, it's a big imprint. It's a big imprint. You know. Yeah.

Rick And Claire (44:44.163)

And that wasn't the first time, you know, like I'd had a relationship prior to that, that it was so incredibly hard and like, I won't talk about much, but instant, like fundamentally I had to scrape myself off the floor of and yeah, it was, it was so tough. And so I felt so dumb that I let myself do it again, you know, like I'd.

I didn't marry that person, thankfully. Like it was a dangerous situation and it resolved relatively quickly because it escalated so quickly. And it was around the time my dad died. So I was extremely vulnerable. And so yeah, I thought I'd done the work. I thought I'd scrape myself up. I thought I was being aware, you know, and then walk straight into it again and totally got my heart handed.

to me on a platter. so I guess it's like, trusting myself and trusting my judgment is really hard. I have a bad record, Rick. Like I'm not good at this thing. So yeah. And we can laugh at it, but it's really true. It's really live, isn't it? it's so true. And you get, you're like physically vulnerable, emotionally vulnerable, financially vulnerable. Like there's all these things that I've had to like stack up from the ground up and like putting that at risk again, bloody hard.

So if you're open to talking about it further, and you don't have to be, can even walk back at it if you want. How does that impact forming new relationships now? Like what's the practical knock on of that? I think it's really hard to bring my full self into things. Like my previous relationship that just...

ended two years ago, was partly, I think, because I couldn't quite give myself 100 % to it, because I was still so injured from my second marriage. I think on an energetic level, he was able to sense that. And yeah, I totally claim my part in that of, you I don't think I really allowed myself to be fully emotionally.

Rick And Claire (47:01.356)

vulnerable in that situation. Made myself financially, physically vulnerable, you know, all those things. Yeah, okay. Like I was playing the part, I was there, was, know, doing all the things I thought was expected of me. but if I'm really honest with myself, I think I was guarded. My heart was really good. It just makes sense. Yeah. Like survival, right? And so being able to let someone into my heart and not having that guard up.

is like a really fundamental challenge. And there's this line in this song that I heard recently that says, are you someone I can love or are you the poison that I'm drawn to? So that's the, that's the glad the lenses I look through like, you the poison that I'm drawn to? Yeah. Damn. Damn. know. It really does. And so

God help like all the, but yeah, I've recently met someone that I just have this like fundamental like sense that we've known each other forever and that like, just feel extremely drawn to him and it just feels really natural to be together. But yeah, in the back of my mind, I'm like, and it wouldn't matter who I could meet.

buddy Jesus Christ at this point. And I would be like, are you a good person? you know, like, check out your red flags. Yeah, that's right. And, man, like, how do you really know? And I just had a conversation with a very, very dear friend who's also just met someone and she was like, how do it? Like, what is this real? Is it not real? What do I do? And I was like, mate, I don't know. But where I get to with it is it's like actions.

and time because I've been drawn in before by words and not actions. So like watch the actions, not the words. And that's evidence. And you just need evidence to build over time. So you can't know is the answer. Like in the first few months, how do you know? You can't know. You just have to. And then I think the other part of that is like.

Rick And Claire (49:21.326)

If we get out of our head and into our body a little bit, it's like, how do we feel? How does it feel? Yes. But again, it's that consistency. It's not like it feels good then, but then it doesn't for three months. It's like, how does it consistently feel? How does it consistently feel? Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like you're the example here, Rick, like you, you and Joe are such an inspiration to me and to other people. I know that you both had a connection and a knowing with each other and you've trusted that.

And you, and again, you don't need to talk about this either, cause like, you know, I know you try to keep that boundary with the podcast and, but, you obviously had this really profound connection and, and how did you trust that? And how did you know it was okay to lean in? I think what Joe's taught me is to trust what I feel in my body.

And that goes both ways. Like, do I feel anxious, agitated, fearful? Or do I feel joy, peace, calm? And what does that actually feel like? Where does that show up in my body? actually to spend some time on just slowing the fuck down, quietening the stories a little bit and going, what's actually happening in my body? So she's been amazing for that because I was very heady before that. I like trying to...

interpret and analyze and all of that. that's been a big difference. And even, you know, we're even just encouraging Finn to build that. what feels good? Like even decisions on dinner, like does chicken feel good or does, you know, it's like what feels good in your body? So it's, I think that element's pretty strong. And because we're in different states,

At one stage last year, it just got to the, I think it was the start of this year. was like, we actually just don't enjoy life when we're apart. And that was the defining moment. was like, we got to there. Took a little bit of time, but not that much time, like in the whole scheme of relationships. It's probably looks at as quick, but you know, we're both at that other end of the age of, you know, we're not 21.

Rick And Claire (51:44.515)

So we kind of had some, we've both had some experiences knowing more so what we don't want than what we do want. And to this, it's like, this feels a lot more than what I do want than what I don't want. So yeah, but you know, I have some parallels with your world of the rescue and me in the past has been pretty strong. And there's some fear, there was some fear around dropping in with someone that

I was unconsciously attempting to rescue. one of the appeals with Joe is that she has a really healthy relationship with her dad and a really healthy relationship with her brother. She's got really strong men in her life. And that shows in how she feels and acts and behaves around men because the modeling has been really strong for her as opposed to the opposite. that was really noticeable.

and she's spoken about this. I'm not speaking out of turn, but, yeah, I, I had the same fear of like, am I, am I trying to find things to rescue? And am I getting something from that? we made that, really explicit at the start. It's just like, I don't need you to rescue me and I don't need you to rescue me. It's like, both have our,

We both do work with other people and now we're each other's sounding board together. it's, it's a new dynamic now because we've both, we've both put our rescuer down. Yeah. And we both do helping work. So we kind of do that in our day. Yes. And we don't need to come home and go, all right, what's the solution? Yeah. Yeah. It's more so now it's like,

holding space to, whether it's her or I, to verbalize what's alive. And it's like, is there any more? Is there more that's in there? Like, yep. Is there more? Cool. Yeah. And that's the thing, like, you know, it's not like precluding, like if there was a rule around, like, I can't be with someone that has

Rick And Claire (54:10.914)

challenges. Well, then there's nobody on earth. You know, like it's not that you're looking for someone that hasn't had trauma or whatever the things are. We all have it, especially when we get to this age, right? Like we've all we're living life. So we're humans. So it's about how is it dealt with? Is it able to be spoken about? Are you seeing someone and getting help? Are you being honest with yourself and other people? Like, you know,

I think one of the unifying themes of the partners I've had in the past has been just utter avoidance by them of not wanting to look at their own situation, not admitting to their own addiction, mental health issue, whatever it is, just be, I'm fine, I'm totally fine, everything's fine. When everything is clearly not fine. And that's been...

probably the one like the incredibly different varied humans, but that's probably the one thing that's kept them all that you could, the one uniting theme amongst them all. And yeah, so I think that's what I'm looking for is someone who can speak about it, that can be upfront about it and acknowledge that this is a thing and this is how we're dealing with it together. Because the word, sorry, keep going. I was just gonna say, God knows I'm not.

coming with a blank slate, you know, we're all bringing stuff. So. got a bag of messiness that follows me around. But I think the word responsibility is what's popping up for me. Yeah. Because we've both had a version in the past of needing to be responsible for managing the piece of the house or the piece. 100%. And for me, that just carried over. Yeah. And it was like, it's my responsibility to make sure that that person is either a neutral or fine. Yes. Yes.

And that's the bit that I can catch myself on is like, is my, am I taking responsibility for them? Cause sometimes what I hear and what you're saying is like when the other person's not taking responsibility, it's so easy to be like, okay, well let's just, how about this? To step in and do the thing. And it's also creates a dynamic of, you know, a little bit of co-dependence and a little bit of that dynamic of like, she'll help me, he'll help me.

Rick And Claire (56:34.894)

When I'm needed so yeah, I just think this whole idea of like is it my responsibility to

fix, rescue, give advice, care, take someone else. Or is it their responsibility? Enable. Yeah. Yeah, And it's a fine line because like, as humans, we're generally kind and caring and we care about the other, especially partners. So it's like, I really want to help you. Yeah. But sometimes the help is the problem. my God, yes. And you think about like the...

basic old school marriage vows in sickness and in health. Like we're told that you should bend over backwards when somebody's unwell. And that is such a hard thing to get over. Like especially when you've got a partner, like addiction for example, deep, deep addiction. And it is absolutely impossible to, for an external person to help that person.

overcome addiction. It has to be their decision. It has to be their realisation and you can run around in circles but until they realise that you're never going to get anywhere. But if you've committed to someone to care for them no matter what and like I lost like my dignity, I lost my finances, I lost my... I feel like I lost everything. I burned everything on that fire of that

of my second marriage and like I got burned to the ground and thank God I drew a line and said, I'm not doing this anymore. Like my life is about more than burning myself over this. You need to get help and I can't help you anymore. And that was such a, such a painful, painful place to get to. The thing that got me there was my kids because if I saw

Rick And Claire (58:39.712)

my daughter being treated like that in relationship. If I saw my daughter forgetting her life and herself for a man, I would just be like, get the hell out of there. Like, what do you need? I am going to build you a bridge. Like, this is unacceptable or to a friend or to anyone else in the the kids are like, what am I modeling here? what am I modeling? And the behaviors of like just disappearing for three days and like.

us just not knowing where he was and then like opening the back door and seeing him passed out at four o'clock in the morning like in icy cold Armidale weather of like you know minus seven and he's a crumpled bag of clothes on the front step and like this is not okay. Yeah. Like this is not okay and this is modeling behaviors for my kids about what's acceptable and some at sometimes it's okay to especially when someone's in addiction to say this is not okay I've reached my limits.

this is up to you now and just put it to the side, no matter how painful that is and embarrassing it is and we struggle against this idea of what a good person would do. And that sometimes the good, the kindest thing to do is walk away. I have this idea around like the concept of honoring self versus honoring other. Yeah. I see it like I'm holding up my hands like a scale. Yeah. it's like, how balanced is the scale of honoring self versus honoring other?

That's a great way to think And often the self is outweighing the, I mean the other is outweighing the self. even, because you could even frame that as selfless versus selfish. And we have this connotation around selfish. Totally. That it's a negative thing to be that we should be selfless. Yes. But I think they actually should just be in balance.

Okay, this is why it got canceled last week and we had to do it again, because I needed you to hear you say that. That is, that's so wise and such a touchstone. Like it's just such a good way to think about it because yeah, I think I flick into the other being dominant super fast. Yeah. Yeah. It's our default. It's our default. And I remember listening to Joe's podcast with you and she was talking about

Rick And Claire (01:00:59.054)

And this is just to link back to your like the feeling in your body. And she was talking about like having a flexible schedule and like a flexible what you ate based on how you feel. And I was just like, I can't even imagine that. such an audit like, and so I'm better now. Like it's something that I'm learning, but my God, through various parts of my life, it's just been survive, keep marching, keep marching. my God, I'm about to faint. Doesn't matter. Keep marching, keep marching. Like just get through it.

And it was just so great to hear somebody say that there's a different way. And that's also, that's a different way of just how does it feel in your body and yourself to balance? Where is the balance sitting? it balanced or is it off balance? And where is that equilibrium? Yeah, that's, I'm taking that one with me, Rick. That's a good one. Yeah, the tagline on my website, it just says, do life differently. Yeah. And I think,

this is what we're talking about. It's like, we can fall into the default of our patterns and be a, a victim of our patterns. Or we can do life differently. And being, doing it differently is uncomfortable because it means that we have to look at our patterns and accept them and then potentially make different choices when they come up again. But it's the whole premise of like, how do we do life differently? How do we not just go on repeat?

Yeah, that's so true because it's a far more honest and conscious way of going about life. And it's also making ourselves properly accountable for what's happened to ourselves. Because like my kids have been with me on this path of, you know, unhealthy relationships. And part of what I've left them with these adults is an experience of that. And that's something I take full account of and, you know, try to talk to them about.

and saying, you know, I was operating from these patterns. This is what happened to me growing up. This is how it expressed in my adult life. I'm so sorry that you got caught in those decisions. Let's talk about it. Like, what can we do differently? What support do you need? It's fucking huge. it's so hard and painful. That conversation is the biggest gift you'll give them. And it's ongoing. Like, I don't think it's...

Rick And Claire (01:03:28.172)

I think too, like there's different parts of kids' lives. Like my kids are all young adults now. My youngest is finishing high school next year. So they're all out in the world and in relationships themselves and starting to- Get a reference point. Yeah, yeah. And so I think being open with them and saying like, I didn't do it right. I made big mistakes. And you guys had to live with that as much as I did.

Yeah, it'll be an ongoing conversation, I think, for the rest of my life, hopefully. Well, congratulations on having the bravery to have the conversation, because there's real ownership in that. And it's easy to not have it. Yeah. OK, let's just focus on the next, you know, it's really easy to not have it. Yeah. And you see kids start to go through things and hard things, you know, and...

Wow, there's nothing more painful than watching your kids in struggle. It's the hardest thing that's ever happened to me. Like everything that's happened to me personally is not a shade on like two of my three kids in the last five, less than five years, four years have been in life threatening situations health-wise. And that...

talk about like getting perspective on your life. Like nothing touches the sides of that fear. Nothing. And yeah, this is life, right? You, they start walking in the world and things happen and it's, yeah, it really rubs, like cuts close to what really matters. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What matters most? Yeah. So.

I have no idea how long this has been going No, I don't have my watch on. I've got no clue what the time is. It doesn't matter. If you're still here, thanks for hanging out. Yeah. I'd still be listening if it was at this point. Yeah, that's part of me that wants to put a bow in that, but I think I'm just going to leave that there. I think it's a really nice sentiment, you know, that whole idea around...

Rick And Claire (01:05:49.539)

the reality of seeing our loved ones in pain and how that can really activate a part of us that thinks about what matters most in this world. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And for me, the last one, which I won't go into detail because obviously that's my kids life and story. But particularly the last big challenge that we had was actually the catalyst for me. Realizing

I wasn't focused on the most, like I was distracted. It was actually the thing that it was like the penny dropping in my brain of like this relationship needs to end because this, I've touched the edge of like utter terror and life and death stuff with my kids. And all this nonsense is keeping me away from my life. I'm caught up in someone else's story.

someone else's trauma, love you, but wow, I need to pay attention to my life. And that comes back to that responsibility. If you're not going to have it, yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to sort mine out. Absolutely. It was so profound. Like it, it properly shook me to my bones. That was two years ago and yeah, a good wake up call. Like I would give anything for it not to have been in that form. Yeah, of course.

And I think you've lost a parent as well. That's another massive wake up call. was lots of massive slap across the face of like, holy shit. What's, and these like ground shaking life altering brushes with death, I think are just like they're real guidance points in life. And yeah. It's a reminder of our mortality, isn't it?

nothing more profound than that. How do you want to spend our time? Yeah.

Rick And Claire (01:07:51.167)

sorry.

What's exciting? What are you looking forward to? And you've said that next year is the word of reclamation. Reclamation. And we talked to last week about my word of 2024 was unfolding. That's worked pretty well. mean, broken foot unfolding to the side, but the other stuff that's unfolded, I've said yes to opportunities. I've been far more open and less, like I haven't forced anything. I've just let things unfold. And that's been a far...

easier way of living and quite different to my very structured way of going after goals and getting tick tick tick. I literally have this piece of paper, sorry this is by the by, but I have a piece of paper that I, with a graph that I drew when I was 21, so I had one baby, and it is every year lined out until I turned 40 of how many units of study I was going to do in each semester. So was like

year, year, year, year, year, down the left-hand column, cut into two across the, was like semester one, semester two, with asterisks of where I'd get pregnant and where I'd have a baby. And then all the ages of all the kids and my PhD done by the time I was 40, like totally mapped out. So many things didn't go to plan in that plan. But on the face of it, I got the three kids and the PhD, the rest of the, like my body be damned, but I did get that.

So yeah, to let things unfold and to not have a plan, is wildly outrageous for me. But it's been really good. So I want to keep that with me. It's not like I'm abandoning unfolding. Unfolding is a way of life now. I'm going to keep that. But yeah, reclamation. So I am excited. In the short term, I'm excited about Christmas because my younger brother and sister, just...

Rick And Claire (01:09:40.827)

owning and our families are just owning the fact we just want to spend time with each other. So we've let all the shoulds go of all the people that should be invited and we're just going to celebrate being together and celebrate our kids. So excited about that. Also, my sister has got the best shout out to me if you are listening, my God, she's giving us the best Christmas present you could possibly give and that is to get a chef to cater Christmas day. can you believe it?

I can't believe it. That's gold. So good. heard of that. I know. I just can't believe how great that is. like already it's been a gift because the last two weeks I haven't been like ordering prawns and like doing all the things. If you're a cook, get yourself out there next year and do that. Yeah. What a business. What a business. One day a year, but that's all right. Absolutely. Yeah. So that is.

It's so fun and it actually makes me look forward to Christmas more because it's not like a job, it's actually properly a celebration. Don't fuck the salad up. Exactly. Don't overcook the fish or whatever. So that's just so joyous now. I'm so looking forward to getting in the car and driving with all the presents and all the kids. But yeah, I'm looking forward to just being a celebration of, and so to me, Reclamation is about a rejoicing and a celebration, not just an integration.

that finding joy in it and really owning it. So yeah, I'm looking forward to that. What about you, Rick? What are you looking forward to? What am I looking forward to? What's really true?

Rick And Claire (01:11:21.198)

We're moving house on January the 20th. I'm not looking forward to packing. And I have this funny current state of like the to do list for packing is growing. There's a whiteboard out and it's building. And there's also a resistance to do any of it until at least Christmas is done. So this week I'm...

wrapping up work for your clients on Monday. And then I'm fighting the guilt of not attacking that list in between things. So yeah, and I've got a couple of weeks off from Christmas to Jan. So I think I'm excited about Beach, Book, Sun, Laugh, just like minimal responsibility.

I function really well with minimal responsibility. I'm, I'm a good time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. But, the stress of being an adult is I don't enjoy it that much. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to that. I'm looking forward to the lack of responsibility of being a and being responsible for other humans in various capacities and just, I don't know, day drinking and

Yes, falling asleep in front of the cricket. yeah. Yeah, great. And then I'm really looking like longer term next year. Like this year's been all around like housing uncertainty and getting finance as a small business owner and all that. yeah. Fuckery. So I'm really looking forward to not having that stress next year. So I'm looking forward to focusing back on my health.

enjoying this part of life, the podcast, the conversations, the connection, and just potentially being a little bit more than doing, hustling, making things happen to be like in a house that's certain, all of that stuff. So yeah, I'm really looking forward to that part of it. And just being open to the universe surprising me with what rolls out.

Rick And Claire (01:13:40.215)

That's the one thing we haven't said from last week that we're saying this at Universe, surprise me. Universe, surprise me. Universe, surprise me. That's awesome. I really, really like that. Yeah. So just holding that lightly and not, not starting the year with a fucking to-do list of resolutions. Yeah, absolutely. And there's some really cool stuff that's already

plan set up, like my second year of study, new group in Melbourne. The next year of Men's Circle, we had a really nice finish this week. So there's some really beautiful things that are occurring. And if I can add my health to that, then it just, it feels a little bit more complete. Yeah, that's the only thing on my to-do list for the new year is my health. It's time to just reclaim that. And because there is a, like a celebration in physical

fitness and health and yeah. an acknowledgment of self-worth I think. totally and this whole like pride shame coin that we were talking about the way I got to that was actually through talking about bodies and like for women but I equally men maybe not so much men but certainly there's an element of it for many is that it's a very fine line.

between being proud of your body and being ashamed of it. And I feel that a lot. And I'm sitting in the shame side of things at the moment. I don't feel healthy. I don't feel a good size. I don't feel well. And yeah, I just want to sort that out. I just want to feel healthy and myself. So that's my to-do list for the year. Awesome.

We did it. We did it, Rick. Let's the audio works. Thank you so much for coming around twice. My pleasure. I think a check-in at some stage next year just to see how the reclamation's going. Yeah, I reckon we should like, book me in for this time next year and we'll do like a 12 month No, it needs to be like, maybe like June. Maybe June, yeah, mid-year check-in. Yeah, we'll do a financial year check-in.

Rick And Claire (01:16:02.06)

No, and like a serious thank you for having me. I feel really honored to be included in this list of amazing humans that you've had on the podcast so far. I love listening to it. So yeah, I feel very lucky to be included and yeah, thanks for re-recording. You're very welcome. All right, Clay, I'll see you later. Yeah, happy Christmas.