Ep 21: From control to acceptance with Chris Slater
Show notes.
Chris Slater normally prefers to stay out of the limelight, but behind his private persona is a compelling story.
In this episode, Chris and I talk about the internal chaos that was bubbling away as he tried to build his chiro practise. The combination of control, anger and co-dependency was created some real-life "challenges" and he then realised he was turning to alcohol to numb the knock-on feelings.
But Chris's story is one of serious self-responsibility.
We cover…
emotional awareness, self-discovery, codependency, personal growth, anger management, alcohol impact, acceptance, mental health, podcast, conversation, caregiving, listening, acceptance, support networks, personal growth, emotional health, recovery, self-awareness, imperfection, new beginnings
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Check-In
03:00 Exploring Emotional Awareness
06:07 The Journey to Self-Discovery
11:53 Building a Practice and Personal Growth
18:09 Understanding Anger and Codependency
23:57 The Impact of Alcohol on Emotions
29:59 Acceptance and Personal Transformation
40:00 The Exhaustion of Caretaking
43:09 The Power of Listening Without Fixing
46:13 Navigating Subtlety in Support
50:05 Acceptance and Imperfection
53:56 Letting Go of Expectations
58:03 Embracing Uncertainty and New Beginnings
01:02:07 The Importance of Support Networks
01:04:57 Finding Purpose in the Second Half of Life
Transcript
Introduction and Check-In
Chris Slater, welcome to the podcast. man, thanks for having me. How you going? I'm pretty good. A bit nervous. Yeah. Yeah. But overall life's going well. Cool. It's a day. Coming out of the shadows, so to speak. Is that why you're nervous? Yeah, that's right. think I'm used to operating in the background and not sticking my head out too far. Yeah. And...
Yeah, not making too much of fuss. I think that's my pattern. So that's probably coming through. Yeah, cool. Well, it's just you and me and the dog and my mum will probably tune in and maybe Joe. So like this, that's our audience. that's terrifying. I do like to do a bit of a facial check in. So kind of similar to what we do in circle.
How are you right now physically, mentally, emotionally? What's it like to be you?
Okay, physically, mentally, emotionally. Physical is easy. I was on the rail trail yesterday riding my bike, so my bum's sore. I have a sore ass. Yeah, it's because it's been too long. I bought a bike rack last, what was it, the Good Friday and the Black Friday sales. So I put it together yesterday. So that gives you an idea of how long. But it was a beautiful day.
out there and yeah I guess I'm sunburnt as well despite the best efforts of the sunscreen. feel like a sunburnt ranger. Yeah well it doesn't take much. I was probably just walking to the car this morning. And then mentally I am... and let's go emotionally. We'll come back to mentally I guess. Emotionally I'm feeling some joy right now. I always enjoy...
Rick And Chris (02:02.795)
coming around and having a chat with you. So feeling pretty happy and excited. I'm feeling, yeah, I that trepidation that I mentioned earlier. Yeah, overall, I'm feeling hopeful for this week. And yeah, I'm hoping to get a whole lot of study done. So. hope's an interesting one, isn't it? Yeah, I think I've...
Experience more and more hope in my life as I experience more gratitude. Yeah Yeah, I think there's been When I accept more about what's good in my life and what's what's working? I can look for that more. Yeah, I can hold it more. Yeah, I think Probably had some negative Negative voices that got in the way of Yeah, so the hope killers. Yeah
I have in turn killed the whole killers depending on the day. Cool. then cognitively, mentally, yeah I'm in a good place as well. I just had a busy weekend with family and...
And although it was draining on the weekend, nothing like a good sleep to cure all those. So I'm feeling refreshed and ready for this week. Cool. Yeah. Same. And I, I just want to jump in quickly before I do my check-in. Every time I finish a podcast, I'm like, Oh, you forgot to say that thing about the check-in. So I'm going to say the thing about the check-in. Thank you.
Rick And Chris (03:50.456)
Thanks for not leaving it till the end and forgetting it. Not so much the actual doing of the check-in, but the reason I have it in this podcast is obviously for you and I to do a check-in, but I actually put it in there as a reminder for people listening that they get to check in whenever they want. And this, when they're listening to this, it can just be a good reminder of like, how am I physically? How am I mentally? Like what stories are rolling through? What thoughts? And then what emotions are there?
So I just wanted to bring that up that this check-in is obviously for us and to see where we're at. And I think it's a really great way to connect on a really basic level of present moment awareness. Yeah. I think something like that is something that's, I would say, easy to do and easy not to do. I read a book once called The Slide Edge, and it was all about the effect of compounding interest, but not in financial terms, but in terms of...
other avenues, other aspects of your life and the little decisions that we make daily or regularly which are simple to do and simple not to do accumulate over time and lead to really massive positive change or negative change if you're consistently not doing these things. But they're really powerful and I'd say checking in with how you with what's going on in your life regularly is probably one of those really powerful things that
takes but a moment. Yeah. But give serious momentum. If you're in touch with what you're feeling all the time. As you're saying that I'm thinking about like, what are the things that stop people wanting to do that? And I think it's that there's elements, potentially elements of that. I don't really want to say, I don't really want to know. If I'm feeling certain emotions, like I'd rather just keep busy and not feel it.
And by certain emotions you mean basically anything except for happy and excited. Yeah, because I think that emotions in particular, mean the cognitive and physical, I think we can be comfortable with unless we're in a really poor place with either of those. We can be comfortable admitting to ourselves how they're going, but the emotional is...
Rick And Chris (06:07.361)
Well, for me has been one of the most challenging to get in touch with. And I think a big part of that was because I was afraid of what I was gonna find. It's actually one thing I really appreciate about you. We sit in circle together weekly and...
What I appreciate about you in regards to the emotional check-in is the amount of layers that you can identify in one time. I really like that there's thought that goes into, I'm not just feeling joy, I'm also feeling hope and this and that and that and trepidation and...
I appreciate that and I think it's a really good reflection of how much time you've spent building that muscle of like emotional awareness. Yeah, thank you. And it's exactly that building that muscle. It's just practice. Yeah, just practice. mean, I've been doing it if not daily because I'll admit that I don't do it daily. I'm back on that shit sometimes. But I've had a...
a background of doing it a couple of times a week for nearly 10 years, I guess, in a formal setting. And then in an informal setting, yeah, doing it much more frequently in a recovery setting. Cool. So I just wanted to bring that up because I...
After I finished the podcast, I'm like, oh, I forgot to that thing again. So that's kind of why we do check-ins. And my check-in is I'm feeling physically, I don't know the word is for it.
Rick And Chris (07:46.36)
Really great weekend. It wasn't a very physical weekend, but it was very rewarding. We traveled down to Melbourne. Just got home last night and this morning did a little workout downstairs. Didn't feel rushed today, so I felt like I had time. it was a really, you know those sessions that you do in the gym that's like, I've just got to get in and out and get out of here. It was the opposite of that. I had space and time. Really fun little workout. The dog hangs out with me downstairs when we train.
So my body feels, doesn't feel smashed, but it feels moved. I don't have any major complaints right now, which feels good. Mentally, I'm really clear. There's not a lot of chatter. There's not a lot of, the bandwidth seems open. I think it's probably the way to put it. Last week was very different.
had a short week that came off the back of a Brisbane weekend and then straight into a short week of work where I crammed everything into four days and then flew to Melbourne for our program down there. So the mental space this week compared to last week, very different. And I'm fucking here for it. Sounds very different. Thank you. And then emotionally, I just feel a bit.
I've is that an emotion? Sounds a little bit inappropriate. I've been emotionally touched. Sure, cause I'm the doll where your emotion is. You're have to edit that out, sorry mate. Joe and I did our first program this weekend and I was just touched to see people that I'd only recently met this year.
to step in with courage and bravery and vulnerability and honesty. And it always gets me. Like it always like, I'm not sure what the knock on emotion is. Like I feel joy and I feel like privileged to be in the room and it's really like my heart opens up. And what I notice is it, it, what's the word? It makes me more emotional to what I'm feeling.
Rick And Chris (09:58.382)
because it feels safe to do that in those containers, similar to our circle. So yeah, I'm feeling a little bit, maybe a little bit raw. I touched on some stuff about my dad and a few things yesterday that I didn't really have any intention or that just sort of came up because of it was an emotional environment. So there's some stuff in there that's been nice to retouch on. But today, feeling really settled emotionally, feeling really...
Yeah, just after that crazy week. Yeah, thank you for that check-in. That was a long check-in. Look man, you should have gone first and then I realized, okay, I've got to pull it together here and get a really good check-in. Let's not compare our Check-in anxiety.
Sorry. I just did that for me, I needed that. How the hell do we know each other? Where do we meet? Okay, so worked out it was about 10 years ago I think, perhaps 11 now. And I hit this country town from Brisbane needing to move my body. had a background in...
doing some Krav Maga, some fighting techniques to move my body and stay in shape and they didn't have any of that down here so I got into the crazy world of CrossFit. And lo and behold there you were. So CrossFit Murbar.
It was pretty fun wasn't it? was surprisingly fun actually. know because if you'd said to me how fun could getting up at 5am to go in the freezing cold or the stinking hot and
Rick And Chris (11:53.696)
run around and lift weights and all that sort of thing. That's not something that I would have... It's on the top five fun list. No, no, but it was fairly consistently fun after about 15 minutes when I finally woke up. Yeah, yeah, same. What brought you down to Moulinville out of Brisbane? Well, let's see.
In Brisbane, I was working up there and had moved through a couple of different clinics or practices. I'm a chiropractor and I wasn't getting what I wanted from the businesses. I wanted to get more involved and I was up there as an employee or an associate. And I wanted to take it further and...
run a practice and really deliver, know, really build something. it wasn't happening up there. So we thought we, we wondered where we could go, where we had a two year old child where we could go, where we could give him a wonderful life, potentially have a bigger family. And.
Although we resisted it, all roads led towards this little country town that my wife grew up in. she grew up here? Yeah, her dad was a GP in this town for like 30 years. Right. So I do remember that. Yeah. Lucy, let's forget that. Lucy grew up here in Millwilmbar. I grew up in a very similar sort of area in the Sunshine Coast hinterland. Can't pause you. Just realised.
We've got our first husband and wife team on the podcast. Lucy has been on the podcast. A good friend of mine as well. And I think it's episode four. So if you want to hear all the background about Chris, no, not really. All the dirty secrets. It's actually a really good episode and it'd be cool to contrast. Yeah. Your episode and her episode. Sorry. just had to throw that in. I forgot about it. No,
Rick And Chris (14:07.019)
Yeah, so I think the vibe here is very similar to the sunny coast hinterland where I grew up and I thought that was a great upbringing, a great chance to have some adventure in my life as a kid and the same for my son. so down we came, we stayed with Lucy's family for a while and then got into our own set up and it's grown from there.
Did you come straight down to your own practice here? I started a practice here immediately and worked a few days in Brisbane, a few days down here just back and forth. a few nights up there, a few days down here. And did that for a few months, probably about four months or something until I was ready to let it go. Until the word got out. Yeah, well, there was a bit of getting the word out, but the good thing about country towns is everyone knows everyone and also...
being the son-in-law of one of the longest serving country GPs in the area. Some networks there. There were some networks there. some, a little bit of rapport by association or trust by association. Yeah, and you're pretty fucking good at what you do, so there's that. Well, that That helps.
You can't have a career unless you're giving some value. That usually helps me more than it tends to be. Not every time. Yeah. So, moved down, started a practice. Eddie was two. Eddie was two. We... Let's see. We came down here, got into that practice, built it up. Lucy was...
looking after Eddie. So she hadn't returned to the workforce at that time. And eventually she did, working in a few businesses around town, but mainly involved as my practice manager. And as she helped to build the business, we got it to a level where I felt ready to do what I dreamed to do, which was to have a larger practice with associates helping out.
Rick And Chris (16:16.865)
We bought a beautiful big Queenslander in the middle of town and commenced filling it with excellent people. Can I pause you there? Yeah.
What was the inner world of Chris like at that point in time? I'm picturing like all the external practical things. So like building a practice, just bought a thing, gonna take on associates. What was your inner world like? All right, so my inner world at that time, going back 10 years ago, was fairly chaotic. Yeah. Which my external world tended to match.
Shit, only enough. And at that stage in time, I didn't realise the relationships between the two, between the chaos inside and the chaos around me. And so my inner world was filled with, or I was filled with a sense that I had big things to achieve.
a sense that I needed to do that and yeah, really needed to have a really big and special impact on the world.
That was part of what I later recognized as arrogance. So I had a lot of arrogance and a lot of denial going on inside me at that time. And I figured that the reason that there was chaos in my outer world was because I wasn't in charge enough.
Rick And Chris (18:09.357)
because I'd been working for other people, because there were other circumstances that I wasn't in charge of. And I figured that if I was the big boss, if I was calling all the shots, then everything would fall into place and the riches of the world and success would flow my way. And is that where you came across the realization around the arrogance part?
No, that took a while, mate. I'm a bit of a slowpoke. I'm just thinking, because I'm just thinking about, not many people in their lives at all would have that awareness about themselves. Because it's so, that's a really big ego one, isn't it? Yeah. It's one you don't want to admit. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, those two came to me because, so the timeframe, we moved around a few times in this town, there's...
a lot of, I guess, people having to move around in rentals and that sort of thing. So we moved around a little bit before we bought a home and that was contributing to feelings of disempowerment and uncertainty.
and also getting this practice up and running, hiring associates, having to fire associates or having them leave because they weren't the right fits. So there was a lot going on and that was really triggering for me, my anger, my frustration. And so I was bringing that home, my frustration, it was coming out sideways.
because my solution to it was to be more in control and try harder. And in my mind, if I saw areas that were out of control, I was quick to point those out. And since I didn't have anyone to point them out to at work, because I was the boss,
Rick And Chris (20:11.533)
I would point them out at home. What was the impact of that in your household? It was great. Everything was done as I asked and everyone was That went seamlessly. Said no one ever. Yeah, it went down like a lead balloon, Rick. So I was controlling...
at home, in particular with my son. He was two or three and so they're a special ball of energy. I've just spent the weekend with a three year old so I'm hearing you. you got it. And my wife said, look, this isn't good for you or for him. We need to do something about this. And I said, well, I'm out. I don't know what to do. So I went and saw a man.
in a nearby town who was an acupuncturist. And we had been told that he was good at dealing with emotions. And since I wasn't particularly good at dealing with emotions, I figured I'd outsource the issue. Can you sort my emotions, please? Please put a needle in me and sort the emotions. Awesome. Anyway, he's going to be busy that day. Yeah, he's a legend.
And he helped me and taught me a lot. But it wasn't just by putting needles in me, it was by asking me questions and talking to me and giving insights. He had a history in a couple of areas that I was not familiar with at the time. One was psychotherapy, where he'd done some training and done a lot of personal work. And so that informed his practice.
And another area was in recovery. He had a long history of 20 years or more in the 12-step recovery program. And that also had changed him and his life. And he introduced to me the concept that... Well, for starters, he introduced to me the concept that I was angry. You know, said to me, Chris...
Rick And Chris (22:28.461)
what would you say if I said to you, You know, said, what would you rate your anger right now out of 10? And I think I said two or three or something. And he said, what would I say if you were, if I said you were 10 out of 10? I'd be fucking angry. Well, I said, I wouldn't believe you. And yeah, I'd...
I said, perhaps I'd have to take your word for it because I don't feel that. And he said, well, that's the thing, mate. You're the only one in the room who doesn't feel it at the moment. Ouch. Yeah. He was good at delivering eye-opener's like that one. He has a sharp knife. Yeah. But he did it all with love. And so he took me through that and he supported me with the acupuncture and with directing me towards...
towards a recovery program for co-dependence. for, yeah, and just by also he supported me by having lived the same problems and recovered through it. And so by example. There was a bit in there that I just wanna jump on.
I'm interested in the connection, because you used the word codependence and recovery for that. What was the connection or how did it practically play out with?
the connection between your anger and codependence. Like how do those two fit or not fit together? Yep. So just for starters, I'm still working that. That's work in progress for me. can you give, just so I'm clear on what your understanding of that is, what for you, what is codependency? Well, I would just call it your feelings being impacted by other people.
Rick And Chris (24:24.297)
or your sense of well-being, your sense of being okay, being impacted by other people. There's better definitions out there, people can look them up and find out what's right for them. But for me, my codependency shows up as my serenity is disturbed by actions, events, and other people. And my recovery,
is growing and managing that so that I'm not so dependent on what is what's going on for others. So rather than being
I mean, I'm not completely independent, completely unaffected by others. It's basically impossible. But more interdependent. Yeah. Which I think is a healthier place where I was very much unaware of what was going on internally for me. I was only vaguely aware of that. And rather than...
modifying my own feelings, emotions, actions, I would try to change other people so that I felt differently. And my anger was probably the biggest.
thing among them that I would try to change other people because of and that would then lead me to try to change other people. It's like a loop that is not a huge. I angry because and then I get angry because and then because I'm angry, this is what I do. Yeah. So there was a huge link between my feelings and my controlling behavior. I was
Rick And Chris (26:09.535)
hugely in denial of a lot of stuff that was going on internally for me. Yeah, this is that's the bit that I want to pause on because it's like what did it feel like to have to have this new awareness of yourself? Really uncomfortable. Yeah, fully, you know, we say checking in with your feelings is easy to do easy not to do but I suppose it's easy for me to do now because I have done it for a long time. Yeah, but to begin with it was
Well, to begin with, it was completely foreign. To even realize that I was a 10 out of 10 white-hot angry all of the time was really... I had to take it on faith. I had to say, well, okay, if you say so. And then I got more and more in touch with it. I think perhaps one analogy is once upon a time I had...
a saw tooth and I went to the dentist when I was working in Brisbane before I came down here and he said, yeah you've got a stress fracture in one of your molars and I said that's weird how would that happen and he said well do you grind in your sleep and I said no I don't I think I sleep with my mouth open I get belted by my wife
I don't, sorry Lucy. But I said no, don't do it during the night. And he said, well then you must be grinding your teeth during the day. And I said, no, I'm relaxed during the day. I'd be aware of that. And he said, okay, fine. And he put a cap on it and I went back to work and the cap didn't fit perfectly first try.
One of my team said something to me and I got an instant jolt of pain in my tooth and I realised that I was clamping my teeth down. And I relaxed because I had that biofeedback, that feedback mechanism on my jaw saying that hurts. then minutes later my patient did something and then my tooth hurt because I was clamping down on it. And all of a sudden I had this huge insight into, crap, I'm...
Rick And Chris (28:19.309)
biting down, clamping down my teeth all the time. And that's because I was angry. But it was symbolic. Yeah, that's very symbolic. And later on, I started to have this awareness and I started to see it more and more and more. And as the veil was lifted, I saw initially that I was angry or reactive quite a lot. then with further work, I saw that underneath that there was often fear and my
response to the fear and the controlling was a response to the fear. And then with years more work after that, I got in touch with sadness and found that underneath...
The fear was, there was a layer of numb, then a layer of anger, then a layer of fear, then a big layer of sadness, and then 64 flavors of other feelings underneath that were not as big layers, but access to all of those feelings, which I've been unaware of, except as a chaotic storm of emotions going around my head when I got stimulated. So that storm would either be quiet or it would be much busier, depending on how active
I was, but that was kind of my range of emotion. was either activated and in that storm and reactive and angry or I was quietly grinding your teeth. Yeah, quietly grinding my teeth. So that all took a while to break through. The general support that I got from learning through codependency.
through the readings and through hearing other people share their stories and hearing my story come out of other people's mouths and starting to appreciate aspects of me that I've been in denial of. And through the sometimes gentle, sometimes not so gentle insights from my acupuncturist pal.
Rick And Chris (30:24.031)
leading me to see things that I may not have been ready to see initially. So those were all pretty big leaps. And then after I'd been going with that for a little while, and I really enjoyed going down to see him because I'd go down on a Thursday afternoon, I'd have my acupuncture session and I'd come out of my acupuncture session, I'd go across the road and I'd buy a bottle of wine.
and I'd go out with my family and have dinner and have a glass of wine with dinner or go home and have dinner and a glass of wine with dinner. He heard that. I think my wife tipped him on to it. And he said, you what? You've come in here to see me, to feel your feelings. And then you go straight out. I'm integrating it with some wine. You go straight out and...
do that he said that's that's the last thing you need in fact I think he said you think you need alcohol like you need cancer well like you a whole in yet or something he said that's going to stop you feeling yeah what you're feeling and so that's kind of going in the opposite direction well that's really interesting because you know I figured I might have a glass of wine here or there I might have a beer after mowing the lawn but I didn't feel like I was using it for any particular reason but when I look
looked at the pattern and I was like, there you go. I'm doing it every Thursday right after getting all my emotions activated. Maybe there's something to this. So I agreed with him to stop drinking. And I said, all right, I'll stop drinking for six months.
And again, we made really good progress during that time because I was not dodging or avoiding my emotions. Um, was that hard? Yeah, it was because although I was not drinking much or often when I was drinking in hindsight, it was having an effect of moderating my emotions and, uh, numbing everything down, which it turned out I was using as a, as a tool, as a crutch. Yeah. So, it kind of makes sense too.
Rick And Chris (32:33.911)
Why your system would want that. Yeah, absolutely. It's an incredible tool. I'm sure it's a reason it's so popular and not everyone that he was, you know, he was able to tell me that not everyone who drinks uses it like that. Yeah. But for me, that's how it was going. Yeah. So, so I, you know, he was, he said to me, look, there's people out there who, who drink normally and they don't, they don't feel this way. And
For them it's not an issue, but for me it was. Anyway, I did my six months and then I said to him, look, I'm really worried about this six months coming up and how I'm gonna start drinking again like those people who do it really well. And he said, who said anything about starting drinking again? I said, I thought we had a deal. And he said, no. And I said, oh, well, this is...
this isn't fair. You're springing it on me that I can't drink ever again. he's saying, just the way that you're feeling so much about this tells me that you might have a problem with alcohol. yeah, again, I was really pissed off about that being shown that side of myself, which again, I was initially quite in denial of.
But I continued to not drink. I think I can be pretty willful with myself. And in this case, you know, my will said, well, I won't drink. I'll show him. I'll show him I've got no problem with alcohol. in 12 step, you know, anytime there's a behavior or a problem that's an issue for you.
they don't tend to make lifelong commitments, but they tend to encourage taking things, they say one day at a time. So I said, well, you know, I've done six months. I'll keep going and see how I go. And while I don't feel comfortable saying that I'll not have a glass of wine when I'm 85, for now that's okay. And that's where I am at the moment. So how long has that been? It's been, I think it's eight years this year. So it's been over seven years.
Rick And Chris (34:54.433)
And with that being said, mean, I have, what have I done? I've had a sip. Like I can have a sip if it's a particularly nice something that I see there and I want to remember what it tasted like. But I wouldn't have more than a sip because I don't want to feel it. I suppose I should say I want to keep feeling. And I don't want to lose track of my feelings. So.
So the Chris that's on the other side of that, the Chris that's on the other side of the work with the Coda Pency, the Anga, the drinking, how is the Chris now different to the Chris back then? Well, I suppose the way I'm different now, and I guess I'll have to touch on the bridging between the two of those.
I have a lot more acceptance in my life. I'm a lot calmer and I have a lot more space in my life. When you say acceptance, is that self, other, both? Yeah, think they come together. I think that the one that needed to come first for me was acceptance of self. I think I admitted to myself that I could accept others more first.
But I don't think I really was able to stop judging so much and chill out until I accepted myself more. And that was something that came through that work. That was something that came through sharing all my resentments with another person and getting it all off my shoulders, getting it all off my back. All the stuff I've been carrying around with me, all the anger and resentment I've been carrying around with me for my life.
being able to blurt it all out and see that I had a role in all of that. Yeah, that's the big one, isn't it? Yeah, I think just spraying it and venting it, there's some power to that because it's somewhat relieving, but the most important part of that part of the recovery
Rick And Chris (37:24.189)
is seeing that all of those areas that I had resentments, there was some part of me that was involved in that or played a role in that. And while I might not have caused certain things, like I didn't cause my parents to split up, the elements of me that resisted that or that judged that or that were held onto anger about that, those were the parts that were really causing me the big problems in my life.
Even that, even just having the realisation of the role that you played in that stuff is fucking huge. Life changing huge. Life changing huge. That literally did change my life. And through all of this I became increasingly aware of how much I was doing to support others.
And that had been in my, kind of my programming or my modeling was to look after others. A of a fixer? Yeah, a bit of a fixer, a bit of a rescuer. And that was how I gained security in my early life. Because it was just me and my sister and my mum from when I was two. one way I learned...
to feel safe and loved was to look after other people. And that was a way of passive manipulation. I was changing what other people were doing so that I could feel safe. And on the surface, it looked altruistic and beautiful and caring, but ultimately it was for selfish reasons. Can I tell you a story? Yeah.
The fixing, rescuing thing is really interesting. This last weekend down at the workshop we did, workshop, I don't know, event thing, the group that we had, it's about making space. And I was setting up, we were all setting up the container of what are the guard rails for this group. And for me, one of those, and we have a similar one in our men's circle, is no fracking.
Rick And Chris (39:35.756)
And fracking is fixing, rescuing, advice or caretaking. Because within 20 minutes, were doing check-ins and open shares and stuff in this first circle, when we were there on Friday night, the fixing and the rescuing just jumped out automatically. And it was the same thing, it just like.
And I'm like, all right, this is a really good time to point out that part of this group, we are going to do our very best not to fix, rescue, give advice or care take each other. And there was people that it's like, I'm out. That is my whole identity. Yeah, there's nothing else for me here. I'm done. But it was really interesting to just see a group of humans.
realise that for the first time of the amount of time, energy, effort that goes into the fixing, rescue and advice, caretaking of other people. my god, it's exhausting. It is so exhausting. And then...
when I was exhausted, I'd be angry. Because I'd just spent all this time looking after people. I'm doing all this shit for you. Doing all this shit. Where's the love? Where was my appreciation? Where was my damn reward? Where was my feeling of feeling great? I felt like shit. Fuck, I've got to do more now and I'm going to be resentful about that. Yeah, it was so tiring. It was so tiring.
Rick And Chris (41:12.351)
having an environment where one can be heard without having the response be to fix, rescue, give advice or care take was also life changing. And I don't think I could have done any of this without that.
And then I came across that in recovery initially in recovery. If you go along to a meeting, you share what's going on for you. And then at the end of it, people say thanks. And that's it. They say, thanks Chris. And it's over. No advice. No, you should do this. No, that reminds me about in my life when blah, blah, blah.
couldn't really comment on someone's share. It was just I got to say it and it was done. And then someone else got to say their piece and they were done and I couldn't do anything about it. I had to shut up. So the little fixer was like... Yeah. Shackled. And I just had to listen and see them. And if I had feelings about that, well, great.
I had to breathe and listen and feel those feelings. And that was my big tool at that time from my acupuncturist was breathing. He said, just breathe. It got me through that. sometimes the serenity prayer to just to let go and realize what I could and couldn't change. I think it's a really interesting part.
this aspect of listening with presence. And what I mean by that is like listening with presence of being really present of what's happening while someone's speaking to you. And my old pattern was to think about what I'm gonna say next to make sure that I'm one-upping or my ego is satisfied or that I've got the answers or I'm fixing and...
Rick And Chris (43:09.355)
you know, we do a bit of this in circle, but last weekend we did again, did the, when you're hearing someone's story, you're just gonna feel what they're saying and share the impact of their words that they had on you and have a full stop at the end. So when I heard you say that, it made me feel sad, full stop. It was challenging because they essentially had a room full of fixes and rescuers. And it was like,
But it was also really fucking cool to see people potentially for the first time in some instances be like, that was really easy. And I felt seen and heard. I've seen that in circle with you and I really appreciate the way that you bring that to the circle. And yeah, seeing people in our circle.
who for the first time, and you know, they're often the people who are providing advice, jumping in and doing that. But once they get it, once they really understand that it's okay to just let it be, you know, if someone's in circle feeling emotion, you don't have to pick up a box of tissues and pass it to them. You don't have to pat them on the knee. You don't have to give them advice. Just be there. And I think it's really interesting to like...
Because part of that is like, feel an old story would be, feel uncomfortable unless I'm doing something about that. And I'm trying, you know, like the reassurance or the advice or whatever. Yeah. Cause how will you know that I care if I'm not visibly doing something to help you? Yeah.
I'm gonna share something about last week in Gestalt the weekend before I was in therapy, doing therapy and my client had tears and emotion and I even just said like, your tears are welcome here. Like a really simple comment and then the facilitator, that comment was picked out by one of the other students who was observing as a good leveler of like comfort and safety and yada yada yada, all that stuff.
Rick And Chris (45:13.901)
not dismissing that but and then the facilitator said, did you say that for you or did you say that for her? We had the same thing. That's a really good pick up. I was just like, fuck. When sharing in recovery, there's a one paramount rule which is no crosstalk and that's defined as no physical or interaction, no physical or verbal response to what someone has shared or sharing. And
You know, we all thought, yeah, that's great. No cross talk. But, the guy that, my, my acu, he pointed out to us that sometimes we were cross talking just by nodding or by laughing. because we were, we would, yeah, trying to, trying to interact, trying to modify, trying to give them support. Yeah. You're on the right track or, the fixing rescue can be nuanced. It can be so subtle, nonverbal. Yep.
So I really relate to that. Cause I was definitely a nother. Yeah, I was like, damn. the question I got from that is like, did I say that to show her that I'm comfortable with her emotions? For me to prove that I could sit with it, know, like you're a big boy, I'm strong, I can stay with this and make her realize that. Or was I just like, big noting myself and saying, I'm good with this, you know.
So it's interesting. These questions are worth asking. Yeah. mean, I'm not sure, because I think for me now sometimes I'll second guess myself if I'm nodding along to a share or if I'm, when you say something, sometimes I'll second guess, am I doing this in a cross talky way or am I just nodding because I agree?
So I'm not sure if I'll ever get to the bottom of it, but definitely I got a lot of value from asking those questions to begin with and checking it when I found that it was in an unhealthy or not toxic, but maybe in an unhealthy way. Yeah. And I think there's a bit of a blurry line between genuinely caring. And like you think about it with our kids, like the lines are different because we're the responsible parents.
Rick And Chris (47:32.504)
what could be classified as fixing and rescuing is also parental responsibility and obligation. So there's no real right and wrong. It's just like, think the thing for me underneath it is like, can I build my awareness of when it pops up? Even in the nuanced form, because it's a lot less now for me of the explicit, I think you should do this or.
the advice without asking, that sort of stuff is a lot less, but it's like, it still shows up, like there's still that little unconscious need of feeling important or feeling valuable or worthy by being there for someone. Yeah, I think.
And particularly I found this in COTA too, in codependence anonymous, which is to say that these things can be really subtle and nuanced. The substance programs, you know, if you're in narcotics anonymous NA, I think it is, I mean, it's pretty clear you're either having a drug or you're not having a drug. You're drinking alcohol, you're not, you're gambling or you're not. COTA is a bit different. COTA is a bit different and I think similar in other relationship programs like this,
sex and love programs as well where it gets a little bit squirrely there too but in Coder it can be quite blurry and quite subtle and so everyone has to work out what it is for them because that can be there can be similarities with others and there can be differences with others and my codependency can look different to someone else's or my altered behaviors and my fracking can look different to the next guy. Yeah definitely.
And I think it's all like all of this is a part of getting to know ourselves. And the thing I want to jump back to on a practical level is like, can we do this with a little bit of grace and a little bit of kindness of the clunkiness of the process? Like we're going to fuck it up. Like, she's like, fix the shit out of that the other day. Not if, but when. Yeah. And you know,
Rick And Chris (49:35.916)
Sometimes awareness is in the moment, rarely. Sometimes it's, know, five minutes later, sometimes it's a day later, sometimes it's a year later. But it still has value no matter when the awareness is realized, you know? Yeah, even years later. And sometimes it begins, you know, sometimes it's in that reverse order. Sometimes it is years later that we first start to have the awareness and then it's gradually we get towards in the moment or present time awareness.
that can come and go. Yeah. It's making me think of acceptance now because,
you know this stuff's just really fresh from the weekend, nice group and we touched on some acceptance stuff and I'm just thinking about the fracking aspect and the acceptance part of that.
And what I really believe with acceptance is that when we can see the light and the shadow of the behaviour or whatever the pattern is, because there will be one, there will be a benefit and there will be a consequence. And when we can see both sides, I feel like that green light says more to acceptance, rather than if we're focusing on the shitty bit, the shamey bit of fixing. Like I just want to feel good no matter what.
that can, that's harder to accept. if we, if we have the light side of like, I'm not a fucking good person and I want to help and my intentions are good and do you I mean? Yeah. And that's why I think for me, acceptance of myself was a really key step because that came with forgiveness of myself. Forgiveness of when I'm not perfect. And at some point I had to come to the
Rick And Chris (51:22.611)
acceptance that I wasn't perfect and that
Geez, have I got there? That one was tricky. I could come to an intellectual acceptance of, course, no one can be perfect, but I think it's still...
in me to try to be perfect so much of the time. sometimes get rewarded for that. yeah, it looks on the surface like there are big rewards for performing and for doing well for doing in general. But.
Rick And Chris (52:09.131)
But yeah, more and more.
I had to realise that I wasn't perfect and you know there were little phrases like done is better than perfect or ready fire aim or all those things I relied on. Good enough. Yeah. All those things that sort of got me through but ultimately it was just realising that I'm not perfect, you're not perfect, everyone's shit stinks just the same.
Previously I used to get upset when someone else's shit was stinking, but that's because I was in denial of mine. through all this work that denial melted away more and more and I was able to be more comfortable with being imperfect. And with that acceptance...
is what led me to be where I am now because I was able to see that a big part of my life was dedicated to a job or a business that I'd created as old Chris, the one who was perfect, the one who was going to have a huge impact on the world and be...
you know, materially successful, but also loved by all and respected in the field as a leader in the field as a excellent parent and husband and friend. And all of that, I realized, whoa, I've got so much that I'm carrying around with me and it is so exhausting that I'm killing myself. And for what?
Rick And Chris (53:56.718)
for resentment, which is what I was sort of getting from it all. So I kind of burned it all down. I sold the building that I had my practice in. I let all my team go, which was really sad. And it took me years to do it because of...
A, how much I love them and B, how responsible I felt as their employer for making sure that they weren't let down because I felt they'd be disappointed in me. a big one for you, isn't it? Yeah, it was huge. If I were to let the business go, which I needed to do for years to get to where I am now, but if I let that go, how much would I disappoint all my staff? How much would I disappoint the clients that we couldn't see anymore because we were downsizing?
And I was just so terrified of disappointing everyone, of being a disappointment. Yeah, it wasn't disappointing someone, it was being a disappointment for me. Because that's the other side of that story that was created of old Chris, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah. So we got there. I, you know, through the 12th step, through therapy, through feeling a disappointment, I was pushed.
And financially we were pushed. I it was more and more expensive to run a business that I was seeing 70 % of the revenue out of the business. So I was keeping the place afloat. It was just no longer viable. So I was pushed internally and externally and I let it go. And that was huge.
it took so much off my shoulders. Prior to that, I'd had a period of depression of probably three to six months of just feeling so disillusioned and so sad and angry and that anger turned inwards that depression sometimes described as.
Rick And Chris (55:59.406)
It was, I think, letting that place go. And what was really killing me was I wanted to sell the place, but it took so long to sell. We had a flood in town here. Well, we had COVID. We had the flood. it just made the place so difficult to move. But eventually it did. All the time. It took 18 months and all that time. I was already a year. It was already a year or two after I should have done it. And then I had to, after I made the decision, I had to wait another 18 months.
It's like running the marathon and seeing the finish line but you can't quite get there. Yeah, it was just... I'm fucked but I've just got to It seemed like such a moving target, you know, that someone was taking that end of the rainbow away from me. We got there. And having got there, I'd simplified everything. I'd just operate out of a little room now.
and I just have me to worry about the overheads, a fraction of what they were. My energy output in terms of looking after everyone else has given way to having space to look after myself. So I went back and did things like join the gym again or you
did some pilates or even, you know, God forbid, went fishing. know, doing things for me. You actually love. Yeah, things that I was always dreaming of doing but never had the time or never made the time to do. I'm really interested about this part because our program in Melbourne is called Making Space.
And it's essentially what you just did. So you had this business that was taking up so much space in your practical world, in your financial world, in your mental, emotional world. And you finally got to the point where you could bring that back down to a way more manageable, less responsible, just you. And what I'm hearing is there was space to look after yourself. There was space to do, find some joy, know, go on fishing trips and...
Rick And Chris (58:03.585)
What else emerged from that space for you? Well, I'll cover the reality first. What emerged from that space was fear. Because all of a sudden, my direction of being the big shot, having the successful business that was going to be financially supportive of me, whether I was there or not, these ideas disappeared. They went out the window and I had to say, okay, well, that's not a thing.
And so the fear set in. My wife, Lucy, had a lot of fear for me because she also, you we both had expectations on me being the big provider. And all of a sudden that image shifted for a bit and...
So what came after that? Well, initially I said, I don't know what's coming after that and I'm okay with it because all I know is that what I was doing wasn't it for me. That's that liminal space, isn't it? Yeah. Between certainty and uncertainty. Yeah. And so I had to step into that big, a big scary step of faith. What was that like? Well, I mean, it was scary. Yeah. But I think both because of all the work that I've done in the various areas.
It felt so good. Yeah, there was fear, but jeez, it felt good because it felt like after years of beating my head against a wall or being stuck, maybe wheels spinning in the mud, I was moving. I didn't know where to. But there was movement. But there was finally some movement. And so it was a huge relief. The fear...
Look, for me, the fear of doing it was not as big as the fear of being stuck like that for the rest of my life. Pause. Yeah. I mean, I feel myself tearing up on that one. Yeah. That's a really powerful sentence. The fear of doing it wasn't as great as the fear of being stuck in it for the rest of your life. Yeah. What's behind that emotion there now? God, that emotion of being trapped.
Rick And Chris (01:00:22.701)
That emotion of...
being miserable or not feeling like I'm being me, feeling like I'm living a lie. You can grow it. Feeling like I'm living a big lie was how I felt.
Rick And Chris (01:00:42.433)
no matter what I did.
wake up and do it again the next day and smile and smile yeah exactly because through smiling that's how I got my love back from people yeah through being the big hero of how are you doing I'm great thanks for asking that was so difficult yeah can see that
Rick And Chris (01:01:14.125)
Thank God that is something that I was able to move past. Thank Chris. Well, know, different people have different concepts of God, whether it's a old dude in the sky or a higher sense of self. I've found when I had a big rejection of the...
Aldered in the sky. Yeah, because I went to a Christian school and had a lot of resentments around that and I put a lot of my daddy issues onto that as well. but when I And I never really felt great about prayer Either but when I directed my prayer instead of outwards I started directing it inwards. I really felt some connection. Yeah, right And really so high power. Yeah. Yep. Yeah to something
to something greater than this little dude running around feeling chaos and causing chaos in an effort to try and grasp some serenity. So, yeah, thank Chris. Thank Chris and thank Thank God, thank.
every person or event that led me to being able to grow and move through that. if we stop there, it's like, if we think about the external support, like the scaffold that was around you, it's extensive. Huge, yeah, I had a huge support network. And that's, I think it's a really interesting point to bring up because...
Often when I speak to people who are just starting the awareness process, one of their biggest blocks is the ability to ask for support because when they ask for support in their eyes, it's a sign of weakness or I haven't got my shit together or so the, think part of the, one of the biggest hurdles is that first little bit of like, I need help. And I can't do it on my own.
Rick And Chris (01:03:16.171)
I mean, in recovery terms, those are the first steps. Admit you have a problem. Admit you need help. And seek help. That's steps one, two and three. And there's shame in that. There's shame in having to admit for some people that they need help. Yeah, well, the illusion of not needing help, of being okay on our own.
You know, it's such a big lie because we know we're not okay. And it's such an energy consuming lie to deny all the evidence that we're not okay. And it's such a relief.
Rick And Chris (01:04:00.694)
when we can accept that we need help. Yeah, and share that reality. Yeah, it's really uncomfortable. Steps one, two and three can be really uncomfortable. And you know, we don't have to be talking about them in recovery terms, just those three steps. Accepting that you've got a problem with something in your life, accepting that you need help with it, and then asking for help. Those are big.
bigger than they sound, but so important and so valuable. And cool to look back retroflectively and be like, yeah, there was that and there was that and there was that and there was that. And I know I like using the word scaffold because it's like when I fall down, there's something to hold me up. Yeah. I feel like if I didn't have those, that scaffolding or those support networks around me, I wouldn't have made it as far as I have in the time that I have.
Yeah, I've definitely been supported, scaffolded and standing on the shoulders of the people around me in that regard.
Rick And Chris (01:05:09.079)
Cool.
And then, I don't even know how long we've been going, but I'll to think for a sec. Well, you wanted to know, once I opened up that space. Yeah, that's the last piece of the puzzle, isn't it? Yeah, once I opened up that space, what came next? And so for me, after backing off on work, I got bored.
This is boring. Yeah, hang on, just fishing and looking after myself in the gym. to men's groups. This is all great, but I don't know, maybe it was that voice of grandeur in my head or maybe it was my high self calling. But I finally had space to see that I something still. And I ended up...
Rick And Chris (01:06:08.577)
realising that my childhood dream of being a doctor, which I wanted to be a medical doctor from when I was like five, that was still with me. And it had been sort of popping its head in over the years. Medicine was something that I was always going to do and I did a degree after school in science and I applied for medicine and I was offered a place.
And then right at the last minute, because they offered a place, they said, fine, just finish your degree and come join us. And so I didn't finish my degree. I bailed on the exams, I didn't go. I jumped on a plane and went overseas snowboarding instead, which was not conducive to finishing degrees. Yeah, I panicked and got the hell out of there. And I realized, oh, hang on a second, I've got some big issues with medicine. I guess dad was a doctor and...
I felt like I didn't see him and put some of that on the profession. felt some hesitation with where medicine was going in terms of...
waiting for people to get sick and then putting them on a drug for the rest of their life was the view that I had when I said no to it. So I went in different direction but years later, I guess having come full circle, I thought no, I'm helping people and I need to know more to help people more because I want to go deeper. And there are some people within medicine now who I really respect and who know a hell of a lot.
fields of medicine that had sprung up in the last 20 years of looking at the body in a really holistic way which I think was perhaps left to the side for a while there and some areas still do but I thought I'm interested in that I want to do that. So I decided I want to do medicine and that is where I'm at now. I've been, you know, I've sat the entrance exams, done well there, I've got to go through a few hurdles. Yeah, but...
Rick And Chris (01:08:19.361)
I'm hoping in the next year or two to be studying medicine and then to be eventually like a 50 year old new grad who gets to go and do horrendous hours in some hospital. But then eventually...
get into integrative or functional medicine, or maybe something that strokes my fancy along the way. But yeah, up my life to something more. And that is, that's what that space has given me. Having pulled all those big rocks out of the backpack that I was carting around.
stand up tall instead of being hunched over and crippled under the weight of them. I can stand up tall and see now this is where I'm going to next. I have questions. Bring your questions. I think the first thing is more of an observation. It's like I'm also on the second year of a four-year study and I'll hopefully be finishing when I'm 50. So like there's a
There's some parallels there of just like, really appreciate and get inspired by people that go after it in the second half of life essentially. We're not quite in the second, but you know. Yeah, and so I really take inspiration from you in your path on that. So there's that. The other part is how do you not turn this into the same thing?
That is a great question and there's one that the little voice on my shoulder does ask me that. How do I avoid turning this into the same thing?
Rick And Chris (01:10:08.589)
And I suppose the way that I will achieve that is by doing what I'm doing now, which is growing. 12-step recovery, men's group, therapy, they've led to such huge changes in me as a person.
that I'm already practicing differently. I'm already not trying to fix and rescue people in the way that I was. The motivations for doing what I do have shifted. So rather than...
needing to do these things so that I feel a certain way or needing to fix people so that they love me so that I feel loved. Meet that little need underneath there. Yeah, I've met that one already. I love me now. And previously when I didn't love me, if someone else did, I couldn't feel it. It was water off a duck's back.
So my patients would show appreciation. My family would give me love, my friends, and I was numb to it. My heart was closed. And now I can really feel it and accept it and expect it, but not in an unhealthy way and give it to myself as well. So I'm not looking to...
this is a way to get people to love me better. I'm looking at this because I'm really interested in it. I'm really excited about it. I really want to learn more. I love learning. And even the journey, even if the journey is just learning more, that's a big win for me because I feel like learning's one of the parts of my life that really lights me up. That and fishing. But learning's great. And then how do I...
Rick And Chris (01:12:15.029)
How do I avoid going into this codependent pattern of trying to build something so that I get some sort of satisfaction out of winning? I guess that part of the story I haven't seen yet. I know that I'm not on the same track I was before because my goals of having...
I'd have a vision board with all these signs of material wealth on it and other measures of success as well in terms of pictures of healthy me and stuff. I had a really warped view of what I wanted in life and why I wanted it. And I've seen in...
the generation before me that all of that stuff can be attained but it doesn't necessarily lead to happiness. You've had the experience. I've experienced it for myself. So I believe that through being a lot more realistic, a lot more humble
which is that nice balance of the arrogance, isn't it? Yeah, for me it's big. For me it's big. And so by being a lot more humble and a lot more realistic, a lot less in denial, I'm gonna have a different outcome.
And then I concur. And if that outcomes not perfect, perfect, then that's fine too. Yeah. I really agree. Cause like it's, it's the culmination of both the experience and the work that you've done. those two things mesh together to have this. It's a, think for you, it's a really embedded integrated felt sense. And I think your awareness muscle is so well built over time that
Rick And Chris (01:14:22.197)
You'll pick the pattern a lot earlier if it starts to sneak in and probably will. Yeah, it probably, you know, will. But you call it and I'll call it earlier. And I've got people around me to to help, you know, show me to. that's that's a huge thing. Having those that scaffolding that you referred to earlier, having that around me is really, really valuable. But yeah, with all of that, I don't feel like. I think when I when I did this before, I was focused on the destination.
And right now, I don't know what that's going to look like. I don't care. Right now, I feel like it's more of an adventure. And that's the bit that I'm excited about, just the journey. Can we drop the mics, even if they're a stand? Sorry if I break it. Yeah, I just think that's a beautiful bow.
I didn't know what the answer to that question was going to be, it exceeded expectations. We caught up a coffee just before you pulled the trigger on this. And we sort had the same discussion of like, know. Yeah, why am I doing it? Why? What's really underneath it? Yeah. And even the fact that you're open to having that conversation just shows that the work's been put in. I'm not going in blind, led by my unconscious need. Well, one thing I've definitely learned to not make a decision when I was feeling, you
an emotionally based decision, snap decision. Like I can make emotionally based decisions, but I don't have to make them immediately. And so I sat with the discomfort and the questioning around this decision for some time.
And in the end, I made it excited and hopeful. And yeah, I still am excited and hopeful. That's cool because how I normally end every podcast is just that question of like, what's exciting you?
Rick And Chris (01:16:31.041)
The The future. Yeah, this week, this year, the rest of my life. Yeah, I'm excited again. I'm no longer miserable and despairing. Yeah. I'm hopeful.
Rick And Chris (01:16:46.765)
Me too. Yeah, that's good. That's Mate, thank you. Thank you. We didn't know where it was going to go with this. We just kind of freestyled. I appreciate your honesty and your articulation and your clarity. It's really easy to have a conversation with you. So thanks for just bringing authentic Chris. Thanks, man. Thanks for getting me through this. Yeah. See, one's so bad. One's so bad.
Alright, thanks mate.
