Episode 12: From corporate law to gestalt therapy with Monique Dalais

Show notes.

Monique Dalais has had an amazing professional evolution from a corporate inner-city lawyer to now running her own counselling practice.

After spending the year studying Gestalt therapy together, Rick and Monique shared a little about the experience - especially the residential that just ended.

They also touch on their experiences with imposter syndrome, worthiness, presence, acceptance and what life is like now.

If you feel a bit stuck in a job you may not love, this episode is worth a listen.

Connect with Rick: ⁠https://www.rickwatson.com.au

Connect with Monique: www. vpcounselling.com.au

Keywords

Gestalt therapy, personal growth, feedback, community, imposter syndrome, open-heartedness, training, presence, therapy sessions, emotional awareness, therapy, counseling, acceptance, community, personal growth, law, relationships, authenticity, presence, belonging

Transcript

Rick: Monique Delay, welcome to the podcast.

Monique Dalais: Rick Watson, nice to be here.

Rick: It's pretty funny because we've just spent the last week hanging out, haven't we?

Monique Dalais: We have, yeah. We've spent a bit of time together. We've become acquainted with a pool table and that was lots of fun. Yeah, it's been a big week, huh?

Rick: Yes. I wonder whether that was going to come up.

Rick: Yeah, yeah, I think we'll give some context on that in a sec. But before we do, I do like in very just stulty fashion to check in and see how everyone's doing when they first arrive. So how are you right now in this moment physically, mentally, emotionally? What's going on for Monique right now?

Monique Dalais: The first thing I noticed was just how you pronounced gestalt and just the varied and many ways that word gets pronounced and I sort of...

Rick: I need more of a German sort of ring to it, don't I? Just thought.

Monique Dalais: Well, yeah, I kind go with a hard gush, like a gush and then a soft on the yes. So I like gushed out and then some people like just stop. And then some people are gestalt. Yeah. So that was kind of just the first thing. How am I mentally, emotionally, physically? Well...

Monique Dalais: I sort of came out of the week a little bit with a little bit of a cold, a cough and a runny nose and a bit of a tightness in my chest. I didn't test positive to COVID like many others. So thankfully that's okay. It's just a mini pandemic. But just being conscious that I've been in close contact with some people who do test positive. So just being a little bit cautious and careful about my contact with others. But feeling, yeah, pretty, a bit tired. Yeah, it was like coming down off a bit of a high, I suppose. So feeling a little bit heavy, a little bit heavy in the body and not quite as energetic as I didn't, not sort of bouncing out of bed, happy to linger.

Rick: I like that term. I'm just gonna linger in bed for a bit longer.

Monique Dalais: This morning. I'm so happy to just linger. And my husband's working away in Korea this week. So I'm kind of here with one of my adult sons. And yeah, feeling pretty good, spacious, doing a little bit of work, a little bit of client work, safely, socially distanced from them.

Rick: Yeah, I think for context, you and I have both just been on our week-long residential for our Gestalt therapy studies. Gestalt? Gestalt. So it's been a pretty intensive, high contact, lots of presence kind of week. And yeah, we've both just come off the back of that, haven't we?

Monique Dalais: Yeah, and I don't know about you, I'm an introvert. I do really enjoy the company of people, but I get my energy from sort of alone time and solitude. So it was quite, I felt like it was quite demanding on my energy, which might be the reason behind why I'm feeling a little bit, a bit sluggish this school. Yeah.

Rick: Yeah, yeah, yeah. There were a lot of demands that we don't normally have in our life in regards to contact, like how often we're in contact with not just one, but maybe like 20, 30, 40 people at a time. Big groups.

Monique Dalais: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So how was that for you? Like what was left for you after that very rich, very rich contact?

Rick: I came back yesterday and jumped straight into MenCircle. So I went from group, group, group to group. And I think I checked in last night just feeling really light and peaceful and with a lot of joy. And I still have got, today's a little bit more tasky, a little more back into seeing clients and doing things that involve responsibility. So I'm noticing that slipping away a little bit, but yeah, the residual effects of the residential are definitely still very alive, both physically and mentally and emotionally. Just, I felt like I came back with my heart a lot more open than when I went. So that was nice to notice and nice as a knock-on effect of being around so many people, because it can have the opposite effect for me. It can be like, I need to shut down and insulate and hide. So yeah, to come home feeling really open was, it was really nice to notice that.

Monique Dalais: I'm curious as to how do you experience open-heartedness? What does that look like for you?

Rick: I think it's, for me, it's like an attentiveness. So it's actually being attentive to what's interacting in the moment. And doing it with a little bit of, I don't know, patience maybe, more so than a... If I find if I'm closed, I'll be more urgent, more outcome driven, more efforty. But I find when I'm a bit more open-hearted, I can be patient to just be and see what unfolds, which I think was a bit of a theme through the week anyway. It was just to be like, can I not effort the shit out of whatever we're doing and just see what comes up.

Monique Dalais: It sounds like presence and possibility, ethene presence and possibilities of that, and it sounds like it has a different energy.

Rick: Yes, and that was our theme, wasn't it?

Rick: Yeah, that in my therapy session, because we all did therapy sessions as year ones, the year threes or fours took us for a therapy session and it was observed. In my session, I was really conscious not to bring a thing that I wanted to work on and just be present with whatever was there. That was kind of my goal. And I was really amazed about the interaction I had in that session, about how I could just be present with what was happening without coming with a plan or an agenda or an outcome, and got to a really amazing place that I didn't really expect. So that was kind of nice just to see the Gestalt world in action and not like making it easy on the therapist. Just be like, I don't really, I'm just sitting here. I haven't really brought anything.

Monique Dalais: Hmm, yeah. So kind of interesting overlap between coming to, so what you're talking about is as CTO, what we call CTOs, where there's a client, a therapist, and an observer. And you were coming in as a client in that, but also as a student of Gestalt, right? Learning about presence and so, really interesting kind of overlap of being a therapist and a client in that, being a student and a client, and bringing what you're learning as a student to the role of a client and being present, which is really interesting.

Rick: Yeah.

Rick: And yeah, the part that I really enjoyed, which I didn't realize because it's the first time I've done it—probably same for you—was just the feedback process. So that transition, because when I was in client, I was in client, I was lost in what that was. And then as soon as the session finished, there was probably 15, 20 minutes of feedback from three or four various people that were in the room. And holy shit, did they see stuff that I was not even aware of.

Monique Dalais: Yeah, and the value of having feedback from others in what they're seeing. Yeah, I found that really, really rich. Moving from being a client and processing my own internal world and experiences to actually, yeah, to getting feedback about the process of what was happening and what people noticed, and from different perspectives. And the importance of seeing that people see things differently, and they have a different take on something. And just the richness when we can actually listen and bring that all together, pulling all that feedback together so enriches and enlivens the process. So yeah, it was fascinating and enjoyable.

Rick: Yeah, and when I hear you talk about like other people's perceptions, like their subjective view of it, it makes me think about like how the power of saying, "I don't know," or the power of being wrong. It's been a little theme of mine this year, like just questioning how much I defend my rightness. But it's interesting in this environment when there is feedback, and it's like... And the feedback wasn't for me; I was just the client, so I was kind of once removed. But you kind of make me think about like how I attach to what's right and what's wrong. And am I open to other people's opinions and being different and all the rest of it? Yeah.

Monique Dalais: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, being attached to what's right and wrong.

Rick: Hmm. What was the highlight of the week for you? What did you get the most from?

Monique Dalais: I think the CTOs, yeah, that client-therapist-observer setup was very rich for me. I got to participate in three of those. Yeah, one as a client and two as observers. So I think that's very different to participating as a client and then participating as an observer too. So I think just the richness of the feedback, learning so much from the therapists and the fourth-year supervisors and also the faculty members who were facilitating that process and the other observers. It was just a really rich experience. I feel like in my training, there wasn't a lot of really observing other people's work and certainly not getting such rich feedback around a piece of work like that. So that was really something a bit new and very exciting for me.

Monique Dalais: That was one of the things that really excited me, and I felt like I got so much from. The other, I think, was just the fourth years ending their journey in the Master of Gestalt Therapy, the love amongst them, just seeing how they support each other. Just being around smart, loving, very welcoming people. I just felt really welcomed. And yeah, there was just so much love over the course of the week.

Rick: Yeah, I was...

Monique Dalais: Yeah, it was just really compelling, and I think, yeah, life-changing in many ways.

Rick: Yeah, and we're kind of on the precipice now of finishing the first year and then deciding whether or not we go on with the Masters. How is that decision for you? Has that deviated? Has that changed? What's that like for you now looking forward?

Monique Dalais: Well, I was sitting on the fence. I was sitting on the fence going into the residential, five days of residential. I was not sure whether I would continue on. I feel like my practice is growing kind of nicely and that I've gained a lot over the course of the year that I'm incorporating into my practice. And, look, just, you know, this has been my 11th year of tertiary education, and I just don't know whether I wanted to keep doing assignments and writing papers and referencing and researching. And the thought of three more years felt a little bit overwhelming and like, "Am I educated enough? Do I still need to keep getting educated?" So I had all these questions. But the experience of the week really firmed me up on a yes to next year. Just the richness of the learning that I still felt, yes, there's so much more to learn. I'm really, really wanting to hone my craft. Because I really think that counseling is an art and a science.

Rick: YEEHOO!

Monique Dalais: And that there's still so much to explore and gain. So, and yeah, I think I just would have missed so many people, including you.

Rick: Yeah, the humans are unreal, aren't they? Like there's some real... I don't know, it's just... Obviously, we go through that shared experience for the year, but it's also just the fact that we're doing it together and we end up having this love of this philosophy or this practice. And part of that is sharing a part of yourself.

Monique Dalais: Yeah.

Rick: Whether it's in group or in one-on-one therapy or whatever. And it's just, it opens us all up to these connections that we form over the years. It turns into quite a crew, doesn't it?

Monique Dalais: It really does. And I love the richness of the diversity of the group and the culture of inclusivity that is fostered there. Yeah, it's really lovely. Really lovely. And I didn't really want to lose, you know, I know that we can keep in touch, but I didn't want to sort of lose that sense of community forming and support that I feel is there.

Rick: Fully. That's a big thing for me.

Monique Dalais: Yeah, because counseling practice can be such a solitary sort of thing, you know. Really, we're in the room with our clients, but it's us, you know. And so just that support, knowing there's this community that is so supportive, and it's such a resource because of their diversity, because of their openness, so much to learn from them. Yeah, I'll be back.

Rick: Mmm. Cool. So I wanna know about you. I have questions. First one, how do we know each other? Let's start there.

Monique Dalais: How we know each other. Well, I met you in... I think it was April? Was that our first? Yeah, at Gestalt Therapy Brisbane, both enrolled in this first year of the graduate certificate in Gestalt Therapy. And we ended up in... So it was a big group, big intake this year, which was halved into two groups, a blue and a green group.

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Monique Dalais: You and I, I'm very happy to say, ended up in Green Group, which gave us the opportunity to at first just kind of see each other across the room, but then get into some smaller groups together and have a little bit of fun and, yeah, get to know each other a little bit more, which I feel like we have gradually been doing over the course of the year.

Rick: Ha ha ha!

Monique Dalais: Yeah, felt just a kind of nice warm connection. I sort of feel, yeah, a bit like I have another brother. Yeah. Yeah.

Rick: That's cool, isn't it? Yeah, I like that. Yeah, we've... It's been really fun. It's kind of like when you meet a kindred spirit, you know. And I think some of our small groups, some of the things we did, were all around getting our playful side out. And I think we may have some similarities in, like, the work that we do, and sometimes our seriousness can be at the forefront. It's... There's a playful part of us that doesn't get out as much maybe as it should or it could. So that was pretty fun.

Monique Dalais: Yeah, definitely. Definitely have taken myself too seriously. And part of the growth this year, with the help of people like you, is to not take myself so seriously and just relax and have a bit of fun. Yeah, so that's been great.

Rick: What drew you to Gestalt? What drew you to signing up for that year? You already have a Master’s in Counseling.

Monique Dalais: Yeah, well, I think coming out of the Master of Counseling, we sort of end with a bit of a framework for how we want to work, and it’s still the starting place, right? You know, you sort of come out of this kind of very academic, theoretical study, and there’s a practical component that bridges practice and theory, which is really, really important. But I had this very integrated approach and was still finding my way. I think I sort of came very much from the humanistic, existential approach informed by family systems and neurobiology. So the body interested me, family systems interested me, and meaning-making was really important. And so I was sort of just sitting in that space, but not really knowing... still finding my way in terms of how do all these things come together.

I was doing a lot of professional development courses just to continue my learning and my growth. I came across a PD that was being run by the Mind and Body Training Institute, and it was a fresh look at Gestalt with Sydney psychologist Michael Reid. They had a free introductory lecture or talk thing that I logged on to. Michael Reid is just this really gentle, kind presence. I was just taken more by his presence, as well as the richness of the content that he brought. I signed up for the course, did the course, absolutely loved it. And then it was like, well, what’s next? How do I become a Gestalt therapist? How do I get more? Googled, GTB came up on the radar, the graduate certificate, and yeah, I was sort of in.

Rick: Mmm.

Rick: And now I hear you say that after Rezi, you’re up for the Master’s.

Monique Dalais: Well, I said I was up for the next year.

Rick: Okay. You’re doing a "one year at a time" thing.

Monique Dalais: One year at a time, one year at a time. I can see it on the horizon. It’s just... like Rick, I turned 58 this year, and as I said, it’s like I’ve had 11 years of study, and you just never know what’s around the corner. So just to say next year and then we’ll see what happens feels a bit more right for me at this stage of my life. Yeah.

Rick: Yeah.

Rick: Also, I find it really interesting, that question you asked before about how much knowledge do I need? Like, how much learning do I go through before I can go? Can I be out in the world and doing my thing and feeling aligned and meaningful? Because I kind of look at that through biased eyes because I used to use learning as a way to feel like I was valuable. If I was always learning something, I was like, yeah, look at me, I’m expanding, I’m growing. But it took me a while to see that unconscious part of it—the part that was just wanting to feel good about myself. So that question of like, how much learning do I need?

Monique Dalais: Yeah, and I’m really resonating with that because I think for a lot of my life I’ve had this imposter syndrome. It doesn’t really matter what I do and how qualified I get; I never feel like I should actually be doing this or that I’m qualified. So I kind of keep going for more qualifications to help settle this part of me that feels like I don’t belong. And it doesn’t really matter how much training I get; that part still doesn’t feel appeased. So it’s like, am I doing this just to comfort that part of me that feels inadequate?

I think what I’ve come to is that this training is so much more than just knowledge. Like, you definitely acquire knowledge, but it’s so much more transformative than that. It’s so experiential. It’s so nurturing of increased awareness and acceptance of self and all these parts of self. And so, this whole process is such a personal transformative process. It’s not really about acquiring more information or knowledge. It’s really about being transformed to be a different kind of presence in the world, including in my chair. So I feel like, yeah, it’s no longer so much about that. And that’s partly because I’ve got this awareness, partly because I’m doing this course as well.

Rick: Mmm, yeah.

Monique Dalais: Yeah.

Rick: Yeah, it’s a really good differentiation, isn’t it? It’s like, I’m not doing it to get the information and to get the certificate. It’s way more than that. And it’s such a lived experience.

Monique Dalais: Absolutely. Yeah.

Rick: I’m wondering, with the acceptance part and the imposter part, I’m wondering if that relationship with your imposter part has changed over the year. Because we’ve done a lot of work on acceptance with the theory of change and all the rest of that. Yeah, I’m wondering how much you accept that part now.

Monique Dalais: Yeah, I think increasingly so. In many ways, this part has helped me to become really well-educated. Like, it has supported me in that way. And there are times when she doesn’t support me so well because of her self-doubt. So just, yeah, being able to be with her and just validate her, this part of me that often feels like quite a young part of me. Yeah, so I think just to acknowledge that she served me really well at times and that at times she can just take a rest. She doesn’t have to be quite so active. She can just have a little bit of a holiday back there, you know, and know that we’re doing a good job. We’re doing a really good job, and we’re helping and supporting people.

Monique Dalais: Yeah, we’re doing a good job. We’re doing a really good job, and she doesn’t always have to get it right, you know. Like, yeah, that’s been a big thing, is that clients can tell me when I’ve missed it. Clients can tell me when I’m not necessarily right there.

Rick: Mmm.

Monique Dalais: And that we can receive that feedback, and there’s lots of support.

Rick: That’s one thing I really love about Gestalt—the idea of the I-thou relationship, of being with another person in dialogue and letting what emerges come up. For me, because most of my professional life’s been in the fitness industry where it’s very outcome-based and very action-process driven—it’s a different world. And this year I’ve learned that it’s actually okay to say, “I don’t know where to go from here. Where do you think we should go?”

In the past, my ego would not let me say that to anyone. I’d be like, “I need to know where to go. It’s my responsibility.”

Monique Dalais: Exactly, huh. Yeah, and so it resonates. Like, you know, I spent 30 years in the legal profession as a lawyer, and it was all about getting it right. It was all about being right and just the pressure and the responsibility of being the expert, of being the one with all the answers—and bearing responsibility if I was wrong as well. So it’s just been this beautiful, beautiful entry into what Gestalt calls the beginner’s mind. It’s actually, I actually don’t know. You know, I might have thoughts, I might have ideas, I might have experiences that inform things, but I actually don’t know what someone else is experiencing. And so that kind of takes off a huge amount of pressure and the idea that we’re collaborating, right? That we’re in the room together, like you and I are now, where there’s no right and wrong. We’re here to support and work together and see what emerges. It’s like a weight off in some ways to make that shift.

Rick: Definitely.

Rick: And I love giving the client the opportunity to say that they have the answers. And most of the time when that’s happened in my practice, it’s taken us to a place that I would never have thought of going, but was alive and true for them. And that’s been really fruitful and rich—to let go of the reins a little bit.

Monique Dalais: Absolutely.

Monique Dalais: Do you find that hard?

Rick: Yeah. That’s what comes back before about this thing of being, having the courage to say, “I don’t know.” It’s the same thing. It’s just a different application. It’s like, I actually don’t know what to do from here.

Monique Dalais: Clients are coming in wanting that direction. They’re wanting someone to give them strategies, right?

Rick: I think that’s been a big learning for me this year—moving from a, like, I call myself a holistic coach, coaching kind of environment where it’s nearly a consultant with, “Okay, what do you want me to do? What do I do here?” And obviously, Gestalt is very different in regards to being open to allowing the client space to see what emerges and to find their own answers, essentially.

But also, what role do I play in that? What role can I play in supporting them to feel safe enough to look within and dig around and be comfortable? I think that’s been a real transition for me—learning the art of doing that. I’m slowly learning what the skills are to do that. That’s what I loved about residential—seeing the third and fourth years and the teachers do that artfully, even the guys one or two years ahead of me. And I was like, this is where I want to be. Because I actually think the art of being a therapist, or what I’m learning is the art of being a therapist, is not about the framework or the systems or the knowledge. It’s the ability to be with someone and to allow them to be seen and be heard. And I think that’s the ultimate foundation for what’s going to come from the session.

Monique Dalais: Absolutely. Yeah.

Rick: And then in the past, I’ve probably taken that opportunity away from people because I’m like, “Okay, this is what we’re going to do.” So it’s interesting to play with that.

Monique Dalais: Yeah, there’s this actual role of holding and containing and creating this environment where what wants to come forth comes forth. Yeah, but there’s activity in that. And I keep going back to your statement at the start about being open-hearted and kind of that patience of not maybe not jumping ahead, but just being able to wait, slow down. It’s a different energy than that agenda-driven coaching, directing. It’s a different posture, isn’t it?

Rick: Yeah. I think the old me wanted to jump to the change as quick as possible. “How do we change this in a professional setting? What are the things we need to do to change this situation?” But what I’m learning is the value of really mapping out what this situation is—whether it’s suffering or resistance or whatever the person has arrived on the couch with. It’s like, can we really build awareness and build the ground of what this is before we even think about how we’re going to move. So yeah, when you talk about patience, what comes up for me is the patience to sit in it longer with someone and take the time to map it—map it through their language and their body and their mind and their emotions.

Monique Dalais: Yeah, which takes time.

Rick: It takes time and it’s uncomfortable and I’m fucking here for it. I actually really enjoy that part now. It’s funny because my therapist in my CTO got feedback about exactly that—that she moved me out of the “what this is” to the “how do we change” part. I was like, that’s me. I do that. So yes.

Rick: It’s interesting to break down this therapeutic model because what I see a lot in Gestalt is like what emerges, but there needs to be some guardrails so it’s not just a free-flowing free-for-all. And that’s where I think the therapist steps in.

Monique Dalais: Yeah, yeah, for sure. That platform or, yeah, scaffold to kind of hold it. Yeah.

Rick: Yeah, the scaffold’s the word.

Rick: So, you’re a lawyer.

Monique Dalais: I am. I am a lawyer. I retired from legal practice about 15 months ago, so I’m not a practicing solicitor anymore. I have a notary practice, yeah, sort of as a bit of... alongside my counseling practice.

Rick: You are a lawyer.

Monique Dalais: I provide a notary service, which is just something I thought I could continue to provide to the community. It is a paid service, it’s not a free service, but it is just—I live in Brisbane Bayside, Wellington Point. There’s not a lot of notaries around this area. And for people who don’t know what a notary is, it’s just really, we serve a function of certifying documents and witnessing signatures for international transactions. So where people have transactions overseas, a JP is not usually sufficient for required certifications and attestation of documents. So I do that as well, yeah, as exploring this new career that I embarked on late in life.

Rick: Yeah, yeah. That’s the bit that interests me. Like, what was the point where you moved from law to counseling?

Monique Dalais: Yeah, I think it was a whole lot of things colliding. And I think Dan Bloom—on our residential, we had a practitioner from New York zoom in and talk to us, Dan Bloom, who was also a practicing lawyer and psychotherapist—and he sort of talked a little bit about his journey, which kind of resonated a bit. That in some ways, temperamentally, he didn’t feel like he was quite suited to the law because he had this very relational focus. And I would say that that is true of myself too.

I think, you know, I am and was a very good lawyer, but I was also very interested in the humanity of the law. But unfortunately, I ended up—my career sort of started out as a commercial litigation lawyer with big city firms, which does not know a lot of humanity.

Rick: That’s what I was thinking. That’s about as far away from humanistic as it gets.

Monique Dalais: Yeah, I’m not sure how that happened because I sort of, you know, went through law school and was very idealistic about, you know, changing the world and social justice. But the subjects that I excelled at were like contract law, you know. So my brain and my heart, there was kind of this weird disconnect. And what I did well was in this contractual, commercial sort of field. I loved being in court, I loved advocacy; there was something that I really enjoyed about that. But it was also a little bit soul-destroying in terms of big firm practice—the whole billable hours, clients being seen as billable hours really.

Rick: Yeah.

Monique Dalais: And so there was just a lot of cynicism, I think, for me. It wasn’t a very satisfying experience. And over the course of my practice, I gradually moved... After having children—big city practice—I had three sons in three and a half years, took a bit of a career break, went back and did a Master of Laws to blow the cobwebs out, and then went back into big city practice, construction law, big firm, and thought, no.

Rick: What was Monique like back then? The Monique that I know, how different were you back then as a human?

Monique Dalais: That’s a really good question. I’m not sure how to answer that. I think... I still had a lot of interest and compassion in human beings, the same that I do now. I think that was always with me. I always had a great sense of wanting to support people on the margins, on the fringes. But I think, I don’t know, I think back then I just had a sharp mind and I loved the law in the sense of the challenge that it posed. I hated a lot of the dynamics of it.

I loved kind of the adrenaline that was there sometimes. I feel like maybe I would have come across as a bit of a know-it-all maybe, a bit confident. I think some of the feedback I’ve had from partners is that I invoked a confidence in clients, even if that wasn’t there. I acted well, maybe. Yeah, but there was sort of a, maybe a little bit intimidating. Some feedback I’ve had from some people is that they found me to be an intimidating person. But people still say that.

Rick: It’s not necessarily a law thing.

Monique Dalais: I’m not sure that I’m terribly different. Yeah, I think there was always a softness and a tenderness and a feeling of not being enough, masked by a very confident, held-myself-together, don’t-mess-with-me sort of persona as well. But I think a lot of that was just kind of the outside. What do we call them? Creative adjustments, we call them.

Rick: I was hoping to get there.

Monique Dalais: To creative adjustments. Well done, Rick.

Rick: Well, it’s like... No plans, of course. I just love these conversations because it’s just an opportunity to see what pops up and get to know someone in maybe a different way.

Monique Dalais: No agenda.

Rick: Yeah, because what I heard you say was there’s some worthiness stuff that was masked by overachievement. Would that be...?

Monique Dalais: I think, yeah, definitely a sense of just not being worthy, not being skilled, and a very driven focus to get really top grades and do really well to bolster this feeling of not being enough.

Rick: Has that desire to get good grades continued into this year? Like, is that alive for you?

Monique Dalais: I think I still like to, you know, do my best. But I feel like it’s less relevant to me anymore. The grade is not relevant as opposed to what I’m learning and acquiring in terms of skills for my counseling room, but also the change within me. But I still like to do something, and I like to do something well. So, you know, I feel like I’ve been really happy with my results and that I’ve worked hard, but I haven’t broken my back trying to get the best results. I’ve put in what I’m happy with, and I’ve been pleased with what’s come back, and I feel validated in that, yeah.

Rick: Yeah.

Rick: And what I hear is it’s not an attempt to justify your worthiness. It’s just, “I want to do good.”

Monique Dalais: No, not at all. And yeah, I’m really discreet. I don’t share my grades with other people. That’s because, you know, that’s not what it’s about for me. The beauty of assignment work is that it’s an opportunity to pull together my understanding, the threads of what I’ve been learning, and pull it together in a way that is really helpful. So I see the whole exercise as being helpful and enriching, and the grade at the end is really not that important to me anymore at all. Yeah.

Rick: If you were to take a guess, where would that shift be—from the striving part to feel worthy to that not being the thing that drives you?

Monique Dalais: Yeah, I think it’s been a shift over a lot of years with the support of others. And this year is sort of maybe the culmination of that. But really coming into... You know, I spent a lot of years in religious circles in evangelical churches. And so this journey into Gestalt has sort of coincided with a massive deconstruction of faith, of really asking questions about church community and the extent to which church community provides loving kindness, acceptance.

A real deconstruction and a looking for a place of acceptance and belonging, which I think is what I was reaching for and didn’t find necessarily. That’s a really blanket statement because along the way, there has been a huge amount of loving kindness and acceptance in the evangelical communities that I’ve been a part of. So I want to say that to all my beautiful evangelical friends. But there were some experiences in certain communities of faith where that was certainly lacking. And so it caused me to ask a whole lot of questions and deconstruct my faith.

Rick: We love you.

Monique Dalais: And found a sense of belonging and acceptance amongst a group of people who were doing something similar. And then I think coming into this community that we’re now part of at GTB is really consolidating that. I’m accepted just as I am with all my funny, weird idiosyncrasies, putting my foot in it, not always saying the right thing, not always getting it right. And with all of the stuff that I bring, I just feel much better in my own skin because of relationship, because of relationships. Yeah. And so less of a striving, more of an acceptance, which makes it so much more enjoyable and fun. Yeah.

Rick: Yep. Yep.

Rick: Completely. I think I’ve had a similar... very different in actual context, but similar in theme—from the striving and the efforting and the worthiness and all of that to this year really being the pinnacle for me. Over the year with our weekends, through therapy, and really the storytelling weekend for me was kind of the pinnacle. The proof that I needed that I could be accepted with all my ugliness and my parts that I didn’t want to tell anyone about.

From that weekend, there was a real lightness of like, “It’s okay. I can just be 100% me, and it’s okay.” And yeah, I felt like the residential was really just an expression of that. I can just be me. I don’t have to show up in a way that I think other people expect. I can actually just be quirky, some bad dad jokes, goofy Rick.

Monique Dalais: Yeah, that’s kind of nice. Yeah, having said that, I don’t know that I always show up as 100% me. I still think I have my times where I put up some walls and kind of shut down or distance myself or whatever. I think it’s a process of growing into an increasing comfort with bringing myself. And I’m kind of excited to see what else will emerge as I keep moving toward fostering being around a community where that’s encouraged.

Rick: Yeah. I’m interested in... You’ve already got a counseling practice, and am I right in saying you see mostly couples? Is that right?

Monique Dalais: No, I’d say the bulk of my clients are individuals, but I do see couples, and I have a special interest and a desire to work with couples. In my Master of Counseling, I specialized in family relationships. And to some extent, all counseling is really family relationships. I just really like getting down to that in one way or another. But I do have a special interest in supporting couples and partners to a richer experience of their relationships.

Rick: So my question is, how has this experience of Gestalt impacted your practice over the year?

Monique Dalais: In so many ways. Yeah, just... it’s really shaped and transformed how I approach practice. And we sort of have talked a little bit about, yeah, not having an agenda or not necessarily being caught up in goals and outcomes. And you know, our theme of the week was presence. So I think more than anything, it has supported me in presence—being present to myself, being present to my client. When I have two clients in the room because there’s a couple, being present to both of the clients, and then being present to the relationship between them, what’s happening in the “between” of the couple. And then, you know, my relationship with that relationship.

And so there’s a lot of attending to, especially when you move into the couple’s space. I think it’s really supported me on a journey into attention. And that’s what I think you spoke about in your open-heartedness. I think you said, “How do I know that I’m more open-hearted? There’s more attention or capacity for attention.” And it’s really supported me. All the exercises we do every weekend when we get together are all really focused on that attention, right? The “Now I’m aware of...” and paying attention, raising awareness, being accepting and validating and including. I just feel like as I’ve become a more accepting and inclusive person, that’s showing up in the counseling room as well.

Rick: Yeah. I’ve definitely, this year, probably similar around the whole... essentially the power of acceptance. And I think anyone who listens to the podcast regularly—just like my mom and my brother—will hear me rabbit on about this all the time. I kind of rabbit on about it all the time, but I think it’s because it’s had such a seismic effect on me, accepting myself and what that’s viscerally felt like. And then it only feels natural to try and allow others to come to that same acceptance of all their parts, not just the amazing parts.

Monique Dalais: Yeah, it’s worth rabbiting on about. Yeah, I think so. I think it’s really key. I think it’s key to health. I think it’s key to change and growth. Yeah, it’s definitely... The harm that happens with self-rejection...

Rick: Mmm.

Monique Dalais: My goodness, what we do to ourselves... Just the suffering of self-rejection. Yeah, I’m actually feeling quite teary even as I say that. And I see that in people—the amount of suffering. And so the power of coming into a place where there is just acceptance of the whole, of everything being welcome, that everything can come forward... Words can’t even go to what happens when there is that sense of acceptance and inclusion and confirmation that I exist, I’m valuable, I’m loved, I can be here. It’s so, so powerful.

Rick: Yep, well said.

Monique Dalais: Hmm.

Monique Dalais: What happens for you, Rick, as I say that?

Rick: I just think about the opposite. I often think about the opposite. For me, the opposite of acceptance is kind of... whether it’s absence or self-abandonment or a lack of self-trust. Yeah. And it kind of leads to what you were talking about before around the suffering we put ourselves through because of not being able to accept some of our parts, some of our actions, some of our behaviors.

There’s a reason I called this podcast Humaning, because it’s like, can we acknowledge and accept all of our human parts and realize that we are so similar in what makes us tick and our themes and all the rest of it. And what I learned from the weekend—or from the week—was that it’s also okay to be different. It’s also okay to acknowledge the parts that are different.

Monique Dalais: Yeah.

Rick: I just, yeah, similar to you, I feel a little heavy around thinking about the opposite of acceptance and what that brings for people and how loopy that can get and how challenging that can get to get out of.

Monique Dalais: Yeah. Yeah.

Rick: I just had a session with a client before we jumped on here, and she opened the call with, “It’s actually really cool realizing that I can be my authentic self and not have to hide.” I was like, all right. It’s just really nice to hear that. Yeah, to not have to hide.

Monique Dalais: Yeah, not have to hide.

Rick: So yeah, I think about the butterfly effect of that. You know, what impact has she had in her world of people that she’s touched by being authentic and being honest and being vulnerable? And then what impact will that have on those other people, and what impact will they have? I think it’s just a beautiful thing to be putting out into the world—helping people come to some place of acceptance where they can be their authentic selves.

Monique Dalais: Absolutely. Yeah, that’s a little bit of that feeling coming out of the week, just how this impacts us and how I’m taking that on, consciously or unconsciously, and how that... what impact that makes.

Rick: Yeah.

Rick: So, I like to finish off the podcast with a question around what’s exciting you at the moment or what’s exciting you in the future. As you look forward from right now, what’s really lighting you up? What’s making you feel alive?

Monique Dalais: What's lighting me up? This is lighting me up. This—being here with you and just the relationships that are forming I think are really exciting for me. Some new relationships were ignited over the last week. I just did a webinar last night with Sean Tone on slicing down, deepening emotions in couples therapy, and that really excited me too. Again, sort of just thought of couples work. I had a couple session this morning that I feel—you know, I just feel really energized by supporting couples because, you know, you talk about that butterfly effect, you know, that if I can support a couple, that is going to have such a butterfly effect for the children in this family unit and then, you know, going on that, you know, that this feels so important and exciting for me in terms of, you know, how can I really support couples' work. So that's enlivening me. My practice altogether is enlivening me. I just love...

Rick: Yeah, it's huge.

Monique Dalais: I love doing what I do. It's deeply challenging personally and professionally. But I'm 58, I've changed career. I'm coming into a whole new—it's a whole new world for me in so many ways, and that I've decided to stay as part of this community to continue to grow, to support my clients. And I've got...

Rick: Woohoo!

Monique Dalais: A grandson, and I've got a granddaughter on the way. So I'm excited about, yeah, nurturing little bubbas again. It's very enlivening. Babies. Babies coming, grandbabies. It's very enlivening. Yeah, she or they are. Yeah.

Rick: That's exciting.

Rick: My dog's very excited at the moment.

Rick: My son just arrived home, so he's a very good guard dog that would lick someone to death.

Monique Dalais: I had one of those.

Rick: And if I don't let him in here with me while I'm podcasting, he gets shitty and he like bangs on the door and tries to open the door. And I just knew Finn was coming home at 3:15, which is about now. So yeah, well that's...

Monique Dalais: He wants to be with you.

Monique Dalais: Yeah. Can I—is that time to put the question back to you? What's enlivening and exciting you?

Rick: Yeah.

Rick: If I do a personal one and a professional one, I'll start professional first. Like this year's really exposed me to how much I enjoy the dynamic of a group. And because I've got the men's circle, I've got to be able to be in that process in GTB and come back and practice in real time with the men in my circle. And Jo and I are starting a new group in Melbourne next year, so that's gonna be fun. And I think after the weekend, just being in the mixed group every afternoon—so that was year ones, twos, threes, and the year fours, and the year fours were facilitating and they were getting assessed—being in that group was a peak experience for me in regards to like, again, the feedback, but just seeing other people facilitate, seeing the art of group facilitation in action is how I like to learn. So every weekend at GTB, I've kind of got one eye on what we're doing and the other eye from a facilitator point of view of like, "Well, I like how we did that." And yeah, so what really excites me at the moment is digging into potentially specializing in groups and having that a big part of my practice. Yeah, just the dynamic aspect of that just really, yeah, excites me.

Monique Dalais: Yeah.

Rick: We did three hours last night here in Circle and it was rich and it was full. Again, it's like that role of the therapist that I used to think had to lead and direct. But it's more just like putting the guardrails up and making sure that we get to play in the safe space.

Monique Dalais: Yeah.

Rick: So that's exciting. And I get to be a bit of a nerd. So I just—I actually contacted my therapist this morning. I'm like, "Dude, hit me up with some books about group therapy. Like I really want to get into it." So he's really good like that. And Jo and Finn and I move into our new house in January. So bought a house about two months ago and yeah. So that's a new chapter, new start, like everything. There's a lot of newness.

Monique Dalais: Hey, that's sexy.

Rick: Feels good at the start of next year. So I've kind of got equal doses, equal doses of excitement.

Monique Dalais: Yeah, great.

Monique Dalais: Yeah, well, I look forward to hearing how all that progresses, and I'm glad we get the opportunity to check in again and continue the journey.

Rick: Mmm.

Rick: Yeah. Well, thank you for carving out some time for us today. I appreciate it. Well, I think it's actually probably worth mentioning, we—I wanted to do this at residential. And then after I got there and I had like, "I've got to do this podcast, sort of got to find a space to do it. I'll do it at lunchtime." And then when I got there on the first afternoon and the theme was presence and possibility, I'm like, "All right, universe, you're rubbing this in my face, but I'm still gonna do it." And the next day I got into the room and tried to connect to the internet and it wasn't strong enough to stream the software and all the rest of it. And I was like, "All right, universe, you win. I will be present for this week." So that's been a nice little journey to be like, "Okay, I can see even just the little nuanced ways that I can not be present and be distracted thinking about future stuff rather than being here in the moment." So it's nice to have that experience but also nice that this week we can make space to do it in a way that's a bit more supportive.

Monique Dalais: Yeah, yeah.

Monique Dalais: Yeah, and I think supportive of me too because I'm sitting here in air conditioning and, you know, there was no air conditioning at the residential, and it's—yeah, it's been comfortable. It's been nice. Thank you.

Rick: So thank you, and hopefully we can have you on again soon.

Monique Dalais: Take care. See ya.