Episode 11: The power of being seen with Richard Hil

Show notes.

On the surface, Richard Hil is an accomplished academic and prolific author. But if you look a little deeper than his achievements, you will see that he is, at the core, a uniquely curious human. 

A gifted storyteller with a unique view of the world, Richard is really a student of life and what makes up our human experience. In this podcast, we dance all over the place but the common thread is around connection. 

How we create it, how we push it away and everything in between. This was a super enjoyable conversation to be a part of and I hope you enjoy listening.

Connect with Rick: ⁠https://www.rickwatson.com.au

Keywords

connection, identity, aging, emotional check-in, community, personal growth, loneliness, relationships, men's group, self-awareness, empathy, connection, self-care, kindness, emotional intelligence, community, self-validation, personal growth, mental health, relationships

Transcription

Ep 11: Rick And Richard (00:02.33)

Richard Hill. Yes. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Thank you, Rick. It's good to be in a room with somebody who's got a very similar first name. Yes. Popular Rick and I'm Dick. Actually, nobody calls me Dick. I used to get a bit of Richard when I was in school. Yeah. It's not my name, but how did you get to Rick in fact? Yeah. So it's abbreviation of Richard. R I C K Y. so that is the name. Yeah.

I've just learned for some reason, this is a funny story. For some reason, my dad, who is not known for names or anything like that was dead set on calling me Ricky. really? I don't know why. Wow. Cause he was a cattle farmer and a livestock guy. And for some reason he was like, yep. Ricky Ricky is a sort of jolly sounding name, isn't it? I've, I've unofficially shortened it to Rick for most of my life. have you? Yeah. Why did you do that?

I love a nickname. I've always just called someone by their nickname. So it's just a natural shortening. Interesting. Yeah. but yeah, I just, I feel like it's something that my mom would say if I'm in trouble. right. Yes. Yes. I know. I know. Well, my, my, my, my actual name, is Richard in Polish. Yeah. And, and my mother used to call me Ryszu.

Anyway, she got angry and then she would then say, call me Richard, you know, with emphasis on the D at the end. And I knew I was in trouble, right? So, but I think, think we'd, we'd, we'd digress into names necessarily, although it is fascinating because our names are so, you know, in wrapped up with our identities. And what comes to mind actually is my very, very dear friend, Gregory Smith, who's you may or may not know, he's been on ABC TV and Australian stories.

I don't know. Anyway, he had this experience when he was a kid, he was in orphanages. you know, he felt this great sense of disempowerment and being dispossessed of things and his identity stripped bare. And his name became really the only thing he felt he owned. And so now he's incredibly insistent and assertive that you don't abbreviate his name to Greg.

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And he says, no, my name is Gregory. And it's, but it's a kind of visceral, really important thing for him in terms of identity and who he is. It's the thing he hung onto as a child. That's the only thing he had. Can't take this away from me. Yeah. What's that sense? That's cool. Okay. So we normally start the podcast just with a little check-in. Just to, and I do it because I like to encourage people to check in with themselves and with others and yeah.

How are you feeling physically, mentally, emotionally right now as we sit here on a Monday morning? That's a really good question. These check-ins are quite an interesting process actually. Well, look, they're formidable questions, particularly in the context of our lives and particularly, I guess, set against the back cloth of my recent personal experiences. It's hard to kind of pin things down, you know.

I've got today, what do I feel today? I feel at this moment, a kind of a sense of high excitability actually and playfulness and it's almost, it's almost in the face of ongoing multiple pressures in my life. And so I don't know if this is hysteria, it's an embryonic hysteria working its way through, but I think, feel, yeah, I feel quite buoyant at the moment. And it's almost as if I feel I shouldn't be, but I am.

So I've had a hell of a week, hell of a month and a hell of a year. some people might say I've had a hell of a life, which is ongoing. But today I'm okay. I'm okay and pretty calm, pretty relaxed, tired. I'm always tired. Dreadfully tired. Because I basically don't sleep that well. But hey, welcome to the human race. That's not something you suffer from.

I did last night. tell you. Did you? Yeah. yeah, my check in, I'm, I physically feel like I went out and partied for 24 hours straight last night. Really? And I didn't, but I feel like, you don't look wrecked. The beard hides quite a bit. At least you can grow one. Well, I've got no hair on my head, so I have to balance it out. I did the weekend in Melbourne.

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We, I was meant to fly back at four o'clock in the Arvo flight was delayed. Then it was canceled. had to get another flight. So I ended up getting into here at 1 30 this morning. So I just feel like I went out drinking last night and I didn't get any of the fun and feel like the, the after effects. Well, seem quite buoyant. Yeah. I'm probably doing the same thing as you like the overcompensation. Right. I have a.

Yeah. A tendency to do that. and I also like, being boring and playful and fun. Yeah. So it's, don't think it's a, for me, it's not a coping mechanism, but it's just, I don't want life to be serious all the time. Well, yeah. Well, it's dreadful than it is because it's, it appears in this very dark light, doesn't it? A dark light. Can you have a dark light? Maybe you can. yeah. The other thing I'm mindful of, talk about body, you know, like,

body at the moment, my body at the moment is I can almost feel the chemicals rushing around, you know, and, but it's kind of a pleasant feeling. It's a pleasant, like an antidote against the opposite sense of feeling, is being weighed down or heavy. So I feel a certain lightness of being. Yeah. Not, an unbearable lightness thing. But yeah. Yeah. I like that. I like the sound of that. The title of the book, isn't it?

The lightness of being. Yeah. The unbearable lightness of being. I'm sure some of your listeners know it's a guy called Milos, a Czech writer, I believe. I'm a hundred percent sure that none of my listeners will know that. You underestimate your readers. mean, your listeners are. Cool. So how the hell do we know each other? How do we know sure? That's a do we? Do we?

know each other. I feel I do know you actually, some some level even, you know, prices conversation or the conversations I think there's a kind of sense of knowing about you and who you are. And I have to say I should embarrass you in front of the 10s of 1000s of illicit which is which is a thoroughly pleasant chap. And that's a very English way of saying that you're personable and approachable.

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generous of spirit, which I really like and relate to and which is great. So do you want me to talk about how I have got to know you? Yeah, like how did we first meet? We first met because I've just moved to this little town, Malombar, and somebody invited me to join a men's group. And I've never been in a men's group before. I sort of resistant to the idea, you know, not because I thought it was a covert terrorist organization.

But you know, as the potential has a potential. Yeah, that's right. We morph into one. Now, I think, you know, it's kind of resistant. I'm not sure why. I could probably work it out. I've been to some meetings where it's been largely men. Yeah. And and I've witnessed the dynamics occurring and and the language is often used and I kind of slightly repelled by it. And and and I remember in the wake of the rise of the Me Too move.

I was invited to join a group in Malambimbi of men and they were roughly between the ages of 45 and 65. And at the end of it, I kind of came away thinking, we really need to have these conversations with women actually. And so there was this sense of, know, self-referential sort of nature of this conversation. You know, we're all talking as men with each other and I don't think that's a bad thing. It's a good thing. But in that environment, I felt

that the voices missing and people missing should have been present. So maybe part of my resistance was that, I guess somebody invited me to come along. I came along and it was a time, as you well know, I was in a very, very troubled space. so I came along reluctantly because the tendency I had was to be alone in a dark room at that point.

But I came and the things that really hit me right between the eyes were the people who arrived, the men who arrived. And of course I made instant judgments about two or three who I remember straight off. you know, unpleasant judgments actually. thought, do I really want to be, look at this person, look at that person. you know, not knowing anything about them. So it's a classic prejudgment of other people. Which, you know, I'm always embarrassed about, but we often slip into that. Definitely.

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until I heard a couple of guys opening up and I was literally stunned. I've never heard men speak in that way. it was...

And I had the opportunity to speak and for some unfathomable reason, mainly perhaps because there was this sense of non-judge mentality. I felt I could speak safely about the feelings I was having at that point. And I remember I just, somebody asked me to check in and I don't know, I'm not sure if it was a check-in. It was a kind of tsunami of emotions and which I came out with, but.

did feel better afterwards, I think that's how we met. That's how we met. and I've attended the group ever since more or less. and, I've learned tremendous amounts in it. I will speak a little bit later, maybe about other feelings about my membership and about particularly through the prism of my age, what that feels like. And I'm grateful to you for your fantastic facilitating and, and, and your warmth, your warmth of welcome.

which has been wonderful. Cool, I'm glad.

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because this is a audio not a video let's talk about your age because we can't people can't see us my age let's let's start there okay okay because we in our circle we we are lucky enough to have a couple of wise men a couple of elders yourself and peter and yeah talk to me about that hmm yeah look it's i think the author the one thing we all share on the planet

you know, apart from our humanity, taken in the most literal sense, is that we're all getting older. You know, that's one thing it combines, but some of us are more along the chronological journey than others. And I'm now 71 years of age. And even saying that stuns and surprises me. And I found myself actually, it's very interesting. I found myself recently saying I'm 70 rather than 71. And it's almost like I'm kind of...

reclaiming that threshold and say, can't, I don't want to go over that. And it feels, it's hard to put feelings to it. It feels scary. It feels unreal. It feels as if I'm not meant to be here at this point, you know, and we've talked about this before, I think previously, but there's a, there's disjuncture between.

your chronological age and how you actually feel. And of course then you get the, and what I've learned about aging is that there are many, challenges in terms of how you see yourself and how you construct your identity. And however much people might try to pretend they're not the age they are, identities are formed through interactions. And so what I've learned is that

my identity as an aging person, even saying that's difficult, is structured largely by my interaction through people and the constant reminders of age. I'm, if I can just boast a little bit, I guess I'm intelligent and insightful enough to be very mindful in terms of a whole range of subtle and more obvious discriminations that occur. The subtle marginalizations that occur.

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forms of language that people use with you and the most brazen and I found I found young women actually to be a lot of young women will say to me, particularly those in the service sector will say, hello young man. And it's, it's, it's, it's quite often, quite often. And, and I'm really, I'm always quite stunned by that. think that's interesting. So obviously you're making an observation and you've given yourself a license to comment on that. And, and, you know, I don't necessarily get angry about it.

but I'm intrigued, curious. So that's the journey I'm on. And it does feel like I'm on the last hundred meters. Yeah. You know, can I ask you a question? Yeah, sure. Sorry to rattle on. No, no, no, no. It's good. If, if your chronological age is 71, what

How old do you feel inside? Good question. well, that's a hard one too, isn't it? I think if I was to put a number to it in terms of my body, my body, my mind, I'd probably forties, my forties. Yeah. So I feel and, know, but your body does talking too. And it kind of speaks to you about the aging process. Yeah. The one fortunate thing in my life, many of

many fortunes, but one of the main ones is I've kept fit. I'm really fit and I put a great deal of stock on exercise and physicality. And so I do something every, every single day. I've often, I probably drink more than I should. I don't always eat the best food. I try to, to have a kind of baseline of good food. and yeah, look, I guess if I'm to talk about

what this means to me, there's two main things I wanna say about where I'm at. One is, it has reminded me of the great brevity of life. That's the thing, life is so damn short. And that's the feeling I get. And from 40 to this age is a blink of an eye. And it feels incredibly short and precious. It feels really, really precious secondly. And my commitment is,

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as far as I can exercise it is in relation to the celebration of life. That life is, is despite all it's many, many, many, many hardships and a refute, right? Yes, there are. That it's worth it. It's still worth it. And there's a joyousness to be discovered then. And we're in this, you know, I feel, don't know what people, I'm in this constant pursuit of meaning and purpose, mainly through relationships, you know, and, and there that's what gives me.

my profound sense of meaning and purpose in life is my engagement with people. Yeah, that's super interesting because what I know about you is that you've had a very

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your life has been full of amazing achievements on a, on a really practical, like if, if we, if this podcast was about all the things that you've practically done in your life, it would take up whole many hours. So there's like the, there's the practicality of the doing that you've done a lot in your life. And then what I hear you now say is like this being

and being connected and that's more of an internal thing. And is that, is that, now at this part of your life, creating more meaning for you than the, the doing and the striving cause you're an established author. So many things, is that balance from writing a lot of books and, lecturing and doing, being an academic.

Is that balance now changing from the doing to more of the being and the feeling and the connecting? Yeah, that's a really interesting question. That's a really interesting question. guess yes and no to that. What would I say about this? think I had the fortune of having to do a PhD in the old fashioned way, the way many academics used to do their PhDs, which was, you

It's called PhD by publication. So what you actually do is you piece together all your publications and then you write a report that integrates all your career ambitions, goals and the rest of it. And, and you try to find some coherence, intellectual coherence in what is it you've been trying to say for all these years. what I, and the thing that drove me absolutely through all those years was to give voice to people who experienced the vagaries of

Right. Particularly oppressive power. Yep. So, and the reason that was strong in my being was because I went to school, an education system and a class based system in England, which was extraordinarily damaging, you know, various levels, not just for me, but many, many, many other people, you know, and that damage was in terms of, your own identity, your sense of self worth. Yep.

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you know, who you were in the world and, you know, and in certainly in England, people have lived in England and know the English society, you know, how embedded the class system is. so we talk in upper and lower and the lower has a real resonance, especially for the lower where I was, cause I was in the lowest of the low. I went to a school where we've, where consigned kids at the age of 11, we had this exam, terrible exam called the 11 plus. if you failed it, you were consigned to a secondary modern boy school.

Or if you passed it, went to a grammar school. Now I, at that age, went to a secondary modern boys school, which was a terrible, terrible school. and I learned a number of things. One was the imposition of power through the cane. We saw the caning system and that in itself had a lot of messaging in terms of your identity. but the other was the power, the validity of your own voice and

I discovered in later life that one of the reasons I talk very rapidly, mean, that didn't merge out the blues. I learned to speak that way. Now the question is, why did I speak that way? And I still do. It was because I felt when I was a kid, my voice didn't have any value. So I just wanted to blurt the words out and get it over and done with and then just walk away. And it took me a long, long while to learn because I became an academic.

Yep. To learn to, to give lectures, to speak at conferences, to do radio interviews and, and the self doubts of being in that class system as a child and in that class based school work have worked themselves through my life. I've had, it's an ongoing issue for me. You know, I've always had it and I've talked to other people who come from that background and they, they will have more or less the same sort of experience. Yeah.

So that theme of having a voice has been really strong all the way through. You're incredibly strong, incredibly strong. So, I mean, coming back to your question, I find it kind of a bit difficult to answer that, you I don't feel that necessarily a conscious shift towards the interior world. What's happened actually over the years is I've become much more mindful, I think, of...

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what's important in life for me. And what brings people joyousness and a sense of connection with ourselves, with ourselves, with others and with nature. And I've discovered through the complexity of thinking about it all those years that the answers are quite simple really and not. The answers of what matters most to you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, have you found?

Well, a sense of inner peacefulness, joy, connection with other people, enjoying nature, feeling part of something bigger than yourself and having meaning and purpose. if I was to put together the assembly or the architecture, what I think is leads to human contentedness. think there's some of the main elements. There are a lot of other things too, creativity and all the rest of it. But, and.

I now pay a lot of attention to the things that bring me some contentment. know, my, friend Gregory Smith has written a book about this, a very interesting, eloquent book, prefers the term contentment rather than happiness. And I think I do too. Yeah. I'm the same. Are you the same? Yeah. Yeah. What, why does that make sense for you? I think happiness can be a by-product. Yep. And I think contentment can be, consciously.

built. So it's probably just that for me. And as a body of literature, isn't it? It says, you know, the pursuit of happiness can actually bring misery. Yeah. Yeah. Is that something you think? I've definitely been exposed the last few years to more of both of the sides rather than the blanket positivity, let's be happy side of it, which probably was my first couple of decades of like just smile and, you know, get on with it and be positive and be optimistic.

And I think now I've personally benefited from exploring the darker side, exploring the other side and seeing that it's not that scary. it's challenging to, you know, spend time there cause it's so uncomfortable. Cause I was so used to the opposite, but probably the benefits that I got from spending time there and getting to know that part of me, accepting it in varying degrees. And that's still a work in progress.

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led to more contentment than the opposite did leading to happiness. So I think for me, it's, it's probably that, that little difference is yeah, the consciously exploring both sides rather than just the put on a happy face. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I remember a few weeks ago, you and I had, I love this term. said, let's go and have a cheeky beer. Cheeky beer. What is a cheeky beer in the world?

We, our, our men's circles pretty social. So we, we try to catch up and do stuff outside and we tried to catch up for coffees a bit and it was just wasn't working. were both had stuff on. like, how about we just do a cheeky beer. I love that. I think it's an Aussie thing. I have a lot of cheeky beers, but you know, and the one thing I remember when I was talking to you is we both talk, I remember there's one point where we both looked at each other and basically said that connection.

connection is this really vital thing in our lives. And I remember the look on your face and you said it was such sincerity and it came from the heart and the soul, That's something very important to you, it? Definitely.

Yeah. And I'm learning more and more as I go and, more into this work and the circles and study and my therapy and all the rest of it. I'm, deepening my understanding of why that is and why that it's a, it's a real visceral experience for me. And it's, it's one of those experiences where I feel fed rather than feel drained. that's the key indicator for me. So,

Yeah. I think the contrast of that is also, previous relationships, intimate relationships where, we were very good at playing our role of mom and dad and all the rest of it, but the connection wasn't there. and it's by having that experience and then having a new experience and seeing that it can be different. having that contrast has really opened my eyes to what connection means to me.

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and

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I w I did a workshop on Danny Melbourne on, Friday night. And I basically admitted to them like, I'm, I'm a connection junkie and not because I'm, I'm, I'm using it to good addiction. Yeah. Yeah. Not because I'm using it to cover anything up or to bypass anything. It just feeds me. It, to me, it's really meaningful and it's one thing that matters most to me. And, we spoke about my.

my dad passing last year. And it was that time that I realized that it's that brevity of life and what do I want? You know, and, the connection to me feels so, open and freeing because it's not a fixed thing with an agenda and all the rest of it. It can turn into that, but if you don't catch it, but it's got so much, moot, a room to move.

And, I love that. love being surprised by a connection. I walked away from this workshop down in Melbourne on Monday night, Friday night. I knew two people when I walked in and I felt so connected to most of them after sharing and doing some work together. And within three hours, you know, a room full of strangers felt like I felt I had some connection to them.

Maybe it was one or two things, but there was something there and the collective connection was, yeah, it was a lot. yeah, it's a wonderful feeling. it's great. It's the most beautiful things. And I think it's probably at the core of why I, run a men's circle and it's not so much.

partially that selfish because I want the connection, but it's also, I understand how much I've benefited from the connection of a regular group. Nothing. We could not have anything planned every Monday night and we would still leave here feeling connected. You know what I mean? It's just the shared experience of people and building the layers of it. That's a question I wanted to ask you actually, which is, I mean, somebody sent me something a couple of days ago and, and it was.

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I can't put my words to this, but it was a statement or a document which had all these kind of trigger words. And one of them was connection and community. And most of us can say, know, yeah, that's something which is pleasant and sounds pleasant. And it's a good thing to be, it's good condition to be existentially and to feel connected. But I wrote this screed in response, actually. And I said, well, you know,

How do we know? How do we know when we're connected with somebody? How do we really know? I was just mindful of Johan Harry's, written that wonderful book called Lost Connections. I'd recommend all you listeners read it. There was an interview he did the other day and he talked about some survey evidence where people were asked, I think it was in UK, that if you were in middle of a crisis, how many friends could you turn to to help you, genuinely turn to help

And he said, over the years has gone down from five on average to one and in many cases zero. So people got nobody, nobody. And I guess, I guess this is the point I want to get to about this, which is we live in an increasingly fragmented society. for reasons we're becoming aware of, not least social media, which has the illusion of hyper connectivity, but in fact separates people out in a whole range of complex ways. so this.

And we know, we, that physiologically and psychologically it has real effects. So what I'm wondering is the sense of connection, not only its importance spiritually and emotionally for us, but is there a broader picture to that for you? Yeah, there is. And I have a really simple...

I have a really simple rule of thumb with it. think before I get to that, I'm thinking about connection, often think about what's the opposite. And for me, disconnection was it been a big part of my thirties and early forties. Okay. and then to, move into what this rule of thumb is for me, it's do I feel seen by that other person?

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It doesn't have to be on something really big. be like, yeah, I the flight that got delayed and I was tired. It doesn't have to be a, you know, a 10 out of 10 drama. It's just, it's just the other person going, yeah, I really feel you on that. It's that really simple art, which is not actually that simple sometimes of listening with presence and acknowledging that you feel and see the other person. And that can be done on the simplest level.

But there's also a lot of things that get in the way of that. There's a lot of egotism and a lot of stuff that rolls through the head of how do I need to show up here? I'm thinking about my response before I'm finishing listening to what you're saying. And therefore by doing that, you don't feel saying or hurt. there's lots of little things that can get in the way, but for me that just that simple, do I feel saying, and if it's a yes.

I feel connected and if it's a no, notice it and it's not good or bad. It's just like, just notice if that's there, if it's not. How does that feel when, when it's not there, that sense of connection is there, how does it experience bodily and psychologically? I think if I, if I do the reverse question, how it feels when it is there is probably what I can answer. It feels, peaceful and it feels,

calming and it feels like I've got full permission to be myself. that's it. That's what it feels like when it's, when it is there, when it's not there, it's probably noticing a little bit of agitation, just a little bit of energy in the body, just the, the missed the missed opportunity. and I'm

part of my default is that in the past I've been a people pleaser of wanting to make sure that I am liked and how the person is sorted and all the rest of it. So I'd probably, I'd guess, which I'll change that word for I'd know that that part of you would probably show his head and be like, is there something you can say to please this person? yeah, there's some tricky ways that I've noticed about myself that if it's not there, I'll

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my secondary action will try and search for it or try and create it. It's intriguing. I asked somebody this morning, I said, because they were talking about their loneliness. when I asked them, said, how did that loneliness feel? And the person couldn't answer it. Actually. It's quite interesting. And I think that that's one of the problems we have in the society we live in and which, which I think, you know, some people, you Hanhari has said, for example, that

We are one of loneliest generations who've ever lived. Yeah. You know, and I think that's patently obvious. I you just have to the mental health crisis, you have levels of depression, anxiety, and all the rest of it. And these are intimately connected to the nature of our world that we live in. And, and I know actually, you know, this very well, Rick, about my experience about having moved from a place 30 Ks away, or whatever it is to a new place and the emotions that's generated in terms of disconnection.

And, can truly say having left a place where I felt very connected to coming to a new place where I feel, even now feel quite disconnected still after several months. you know, it's not as if I'm, I haven't got contact with people, but it's the quality of the relationship. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, know, and that's what I'm really mindful of. it's like, what, deepens relationship? It's not simply that.

Well, mean, part of the story, guess what you're saying, you feel noticed. What's the word you use? Didn't notice. Seen. Seen. Yeah, I like that. You feel seen or notice or, and you get the sense that somebody cares. They care about what you think and feel and, and they're going to be involved in that at some level, some discursive emotional level, they're going to be involved in that. And that's, and they're going to follow up. And I asked my wife about this actually, how do you know when you feel connected? She goes,

Well, one of the key markers is availability. That person is available in life to show up. They want to show up. I, I totally get that. And my experience here in this new place has been that the tenuous nature of that availability. And it feels like I've got to work on it. And I'm nervous about transgressing. I'm edgy about not feeling too needy. somebody called me needy the other day and I said, wow, that's a really interesting term. said, you're right.

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I have needs. have needs. I think we're all needed. Yeah. Do you share that? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I have needs. get grumpy when they're not met. Yeah. I want to ask you the same question. Okay. You've just expressed that there's a situation where you've recently moved up to Moulin bar and there's slowly building connection, but it's in no capacity to the depth of the connections that you had in your old community.

What does that feel like? Because that's essentially that question around what does disconnection feel like? Yeah, thank you for the question. The reason I have a certain reluctance around answering it is because it evokes such emotion. I have to say, I've had many, many a night lying here in bed wondering what on earth have I done.

What on earth am I doing here? A sense of grief and loss around the relationships I had, even though it's half an hour down the road. And there's that sense of parting from familiar place to a place where I'm back into the world of the tenuous, trying to reestablish relationships, know, reaching out to people. Sometimes people will take your hand and pull you in. A lot of times they don't, they'll let you go. I think age is partly a function of that.

There's also, I think the unsaid and the unseen, know, and it's what you exude. There's something you exude, you know. I've quoted this before, but there's U2 song called, I think it's U2, think it's a song called So Cruel. And it talks about not neediness, what's the word? desperation, the notion of desperation. Desperation will get you every time. And if you have that sense, that something emerges in you.

that wants the relationship almost too much and people are pulled back and repelled by it. Have you ever felt that? Yeah, definitely. I think it's not somebody else does. Well, I just think it's hard and parcel with that. The process of building the layers of connection. Cause you might meet someone down the street that you have a two minute chat to. And then it's like, let's change numbers and catch up for coffee. then, you know, so there's like, cool.

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And then you might catch up for a coffee and it deepens a little bit, but then you might ask to go for another coffee and they don't respond. You know, it's like, it's just the slow dance of the building the connection. Yeah. I love that. Actually. love that. And actually the slow dance and there's, can be disappointments, right? A hundred percent. you see, so you can have a link with somebody I've had, I've had two experiences here where one person in particular, I felt this enormous rapport.

God, thank God I've met this person. I'll feel connected. this is great. And then, and then there was this immediate pullback. And I was mystified by God, what's happened there until I kind of realized something about this person and how they operate in the world. and because we make all sorts of assumptions, you know, some people can have personas which are warm and appealing and they can draw you in, the nature of their lives or the decisions they make, how to live their lives don't accommodate you.

Yeah. They don't necessarily readily accommodate you. and, I think, you know, if I look back to the friends I have in Malibu, for example, they're the most unlikely in some cases, group of people that I would have befriended. And I first met them, you know, the fallings out didn't like them particularly, but it was a deepening over time. those conversations, which are, it's not, it's being seen, but it's being seen what's in it. What's in your interior world and sharing that.

empathizing with it and being part of that. Yeah. And being available and caring. Yeah. And I think that's, part of what we're, we're trying to do this year in circle, isn't it? Because we, we focus a lot less on advice and rescuing and when it's not, when a man is speaking and we focus a lot more on, can we resonate with what are you feeling when that man is talking? Yeah. Yeah. And to me, that's the practical example of

feeling seen because it's as you're speaking, I'm not coming up with a strategy of how I can fix it. I'm actually having the awareness and the presence to feel what I'm feeling while your words are coming out without needing to change it or fix it or do anything. And that's like, when you said that bit about moving up from Malam, it really got me. That shows that someone's listening and it shows that you've been heard.

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You know, and I think in our society, especially, in our gender, we, we can have a propensity to, whether it's conscious or unconscious, want to fix it. Yeah. That's very interesting. That's really interesting. think you're right. Actually, I think you are right. You know, and I think what, what most, drew me in observationally when I first came to the group was, just the listening to how people were speaking. was so intrigued by the language.

And obviously the learnt capacity to articulate these very troubling things called emotions. we have, we look, the human language cannot accommodate the complexity of human emotion. just can't convey it. But I'll tell you what, if there's a group I've been in, it's this one, which is, tells me about how some people, I'm thinking about one person in particular who they've learnt over time, had to...

rather than just react to a very visceral bodily level to respond in a very intelligent way. beautiful to watch, isn't it? it is a beautiful thing. It really is a beautiful thing. It's a, it's heartwarming. There've been many times I've nearly been in tears and people, know, and I think that's the value of having a, a space that feels safe where you can just say what's happening in your world, whether it's in the practical or the emotional and not feel like

someone's going to fix you or you need to be different or judge you. think that's. That's true. It's true. And I think it's very rare, very rare, very well in the course of life, everyday life. Yeah. And part of that response I gave to that statement, which I was talking about earlier about, you know, people are throwing out terminology like connection and community. I mean, but the reality of in how we work it through, through repeated practice or repeated engagement is an entire.

And I think, do think in this world with social media and all the rest of it, we know there has been, there is a diminishing capacity to talk about our emotions and that's demonstrable in certainly amongst a lot of young people who overuse social media, that there's a demonstrable lack of empathy. can't actually engage with other people.

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And, and that's a terrible tragedy. I do think we are sleepwalking down a very difficult road of disconnection. And, and that's why this group that you've silicate is so important because in a way it runs against that grain. runs against the grain of social disconnection and fragmentation. Yeah. Yeah. Cause if we think about like,

with this workshop we did on Friday night, the three terms were connection, community and change. And yes, they're buzzwords, but I also have meaning. for me, it's to get to the definition of those. always think about the opposite. So for connection, it's disconnection for community, you know, it's isolation and for change it's stagnation.

It's kind of looking at the spectrum of those from what they are and then what their opposite is. Yeah. And realizing that, we can dance along that spectrum between the, what they're not and what they are. It doesn't have to be hanging out at the ends. And, for me, that frees up the rigidity. It makes it more fluid. And I suppose Rick too, that's very interesting. I suppose, you know, there's an assumption there that,

even if we are seen or noticed by the other, that we automatically are going to get connection. But there is this thing called chemistry, there? And there's the dimensions of personality, which we're all drawn to. And I mean, my thing is humor. I'm really drawn to humor and I'm drawn to certain brands of humor, know, often very bawdy humor, you know, and I love people, don't know, what's it, banter. I love banter. And partly because I come from the English society where that's a common thing. So,

And I'm very, very drawn to humor and and the other thing to a deep kindness, but not what I'd call a kind of projected kindness where somebody claims to be kind, but something that's exhibited through action, you know, in a manifest way. That's an interesting distinction. it? Yeah. Yeah. Projected kindness. Yeah. Why would people project kindness, do you think? Well, let me put it, what am I, and I've got a

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people who I might be describing this, I hope they're not listening. But there are people I met in Malham who profess to be Buddhist, for example. they all had all the terminology. And I was absolutely struck by the divergence between what they were talking about and their behaviors. And I could never get over it. It went on for ages and ages. think, God, so hang on, you're professing this, but look what you're actually doing now.

And so I guess, I guess it's that kindness is, mean, I have to say, I've met a lot of people who claim to be kind, but I've never regarded them as such. Yeah, that's interesting. I've met the opposite. I've met people who don't profess to be kind, but their actions are so generous and so kind, you know, and you don't need to be a Buddhist to be kind, right? I mean, your actions and your conscious awareness of the other.

and their feelings, is the most important thing. Yeah. think that's the pure litmus test is because the, can say one thing and do the other. So it's the actions that really are felt are acknowledged are, you know, if you're telling me you're going to do one thing and you do the other, like, I'll see the bit that you're doing rather than what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. That's right. And then in that, in that, that gap between the, word and the action, there's, there's little layers of mistrust there.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, it's true. It's true. yeah, look, I'll tell you, I'm doing something. As soon as you said that, my mind went somewhere. It's like thinking. And one of the things I thinking about this, in terms of these disjunctures and the distrust thing too, is one of the things that I felt when I came here was I was really, I felt like I was really putting myself out emotionally for people. And was almost as if I was saying,

please engage with me, please be with me, please recognize my suffering. And at a very human level, I don't think I could have expressed anything else at the time, but the way that's interpreted by the other is often repulsion actually, you can repel, but people can walk away, and it's too much, too too needy, too needy, whatever they say. And yet, I tell you what that experience has done for me.

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it was done for me, it's made me much more mindful of people in that position. Like I met somebody today who's absolutely in that position and I was conscious of it. And I was kind of, not repels too strong a word, but I was kind of a bit reluctant to engage, but I thought, this person, this person is in a certain space. is the gift of the experience, isn't it? Yeah. And I need to be mindful of this. I need to be kind, kind here, kind, you know,

And, and the kindness is listening and engaging in whichever way that person was choosing to, to talk. And, and I do think there's a, I do think there's a kind of, in our society, there's a lack of awareness of that very often. Cause what are we dealing with, Ricky? You know, there's, all deal with each other in the most superficial ways and often completely out of kilter with who we actually are. That's why I love these conversations. Yeah. Because it's, it's.

Let's just see what's under there and what, what you believe, what you feel, what are your values? Well, let's have a conversation. Let's have a dialogue. like to me, this is a, it's a really strong form of connection. We just take the time to see what emerges from a conversation without it needing to be anything without it, you know, having an agenda or anything. you use the word kind before.

in regards to noticing someone else in the same situation that you've been in the past.

that word kindness, how, how effective are you at applying that to yourself? That's a good question. that's a really good question. It's one of those questions, right? It's one of those questions. hang on. I'm so good at doing it. look, cause myself here. it's, it's, yeah, look, it's fascinating, isn't it? You know,

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This idea that we have a relationship with ourselves is so confusing for so many people, know, that because we often conceive of relationship with another, my relationship with you, because you're sitting there, I'm here and this is, but the idea we have this, this relationship with ourselves invites the question and what is the self, know, we could go along that road. But I guess I still have enormous difficulty in

engaging with myself in a very constructive kind way. know, I can be, I can be very self blaming, you know, and, and, push myself to the end degree. And, I can be very unkind to myself. And, I was this morning and, and, and, and I think, you know, what do you get from that? What do I get from that? That's a good question. I, I guess it's almost like a chemical expression. What's going in in the body at the time. It's like,

And I haven't learned that well yet to kind of recognize what's going on bodily and how that's presenting. And today I found myself, I just little thing, we came into town today. I was looking for some croissants from my very dear friend who I'm sitting with here saying, know, cause I asked Rick, I don't want your listeners to know that I asked him if he had any biscuits and he didn't. So I thought, okay, I'll go and get some croissants. Which I was happy about. But unfortunately the shop was shut.

And that was enough to trigger something. And yeah, behind it was because I wanted to be an act of kindness for you. I wanted give you this. I want say this is because, you know, it's a nice thing to do and I respect and like you. And, and, and I was so disappointed, but I react by turning on myself. Bloody eyes, place in the traffic and I hate this place. It went into that kind of thing. And it was very silly, very rational. And, but I calmed down very quickly, but, that's the 10, you know, that's, that's a tendency of me to turn inwards and to.

sort catastrophize and, so when people talk about self care, I love these terms. What on earth is self care? I'd love to know. I know in part, we could deconstruct the whole notion of self care for hours on end. could be a whole podcast series. reckon so. reckon so. mean, anybody who's read that book by Bridget Delaney, I think it's called, some, some about wellness and this.

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She refers to the spiritual industrial complex. I love that term. it's like, is a massive industry around this stuff about self care. And I still struggle with understanding what it is actually. I mean, can trot out the obvious. well you do yoga, you take time out, you're kind to yourself. But I'm not absolutely sure what being kind to yourself is. I haven't quite learned that yet. I'm struggling with it.

And would that fit under the category of self care for you of that? That, I'm learning to be kind to myself. Yeah, I think so. think so. And, I think so. and, I think I've always had this thing about, between theory and practice slight disjuncture in my life. some people describe it as a chasm. If you ask my partner, says, you know, but it's a sort of chasm, you know,

And so I can fear, I looked at some of my books recently. I've got 60 old boxes of huge boxes of books and the vast majority of them would be, you might put in the personal growth, self-development, psychology part of the literary world. And when I look at it, I think, God, I've read all this. How come I'm still in this state? And it's rather like James Hillman wrote a wonderful book.

psychology. So we've had a hundred years of psychology and things are worse than ever. How can this be? You know that feeling? Yeah, definitely. No, I am pretty interested about that definition of self care because it's, I think it gets bandied around a lot now. And a lot of it, what I see is the, the practical, get a massage, take the day off. Like it's, it's the real practical doing, but I think what we're touching on here with like,

learning to be kinder to ourselves. And the language I like to use is like learning not to turn our back on ourselves. Like to me, that's a, that's a pretty.

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the words for it. Appropriate definition of self care because in that it's the caring for the mental emotional dialogue and the knock on effect of what that dialogue is when it's not healthy or when it takes over and actually acknowledging the impact that has on your life and your relationships and in your body and you know.

Yeah. I think it's such a powerful point, such a powerful point. And, you know, I mean, I suppose the person who's really influenced me a lot in, that sense, in, I'll use it. was about to trot out that word reflexivity, you know, the capacity to reflect, be engaged in a reflective process and listening to those dialogues, which are going on through your head is Eckhart Tolle, the power of now, think marvelous book, but I've listened to a lot of his podcasts and

The essential message which he's putting across there is if we talk about presence, about being in this state of bliss and peacefulness, well, part of that is achieved through an increased awareness of what is running through our heads. I love that story he tells again. says, you know, if you're walking down the streets and you see a guy talking to himself and berating himself, you go, poor guy, he's got a health problem, needs some help.

You know, it's very sad. And he said, but we do all the time. Yeah. We just don't vocalize. constant. Yeah. It's constant in our heads. This is what we do, you know, and we have the most bizarre stories running through our heads. Most of them, I think our default position, Eko Tull says the same thing is our default position is one of negativity. have this default to negativity constantly. and that is exhibited in part through the narratives, which are rolling through our head. Yeah.

which are, be very self-destructive. And we've all been there. Yeah. It makes me think about a thing we did in circle a while ago. And it was the, the, the sentence stem of like, what I appreciate about you. Yes, I remember that very well. that, like we've said today, like that can feel manageable and doable when you're talking to another human.

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Richard, what I appreciate about you is, you know, off we go. I could go for days. What does that dialogue look like when you're talking to yourself? Well, that's an interesting question. Can I just preface that and my response to that by saying, when we did that exercise, I remember it and it really sat with me. because at the time when we did it, I felt this extraordinary sense of self doubt. You know, my relationships weren't deepening here and thought, God, what's happening?

You know, you get into that narrative, that dialogue. And when we did that and people put, we put our hands on each other's shoulders and they were looking right into your eyes and saying with sincerity. And I found it difficult to contain my emotions around it because it, yeah, even now when I'm talking about it, I can feel the emotions rising because another human being is saying, I like this about you. You're a worthwhile person. You matter. I care about who you are.

boy, is that the best feeling in the world, right? That's the best thing. And, and to the point that you made in regards to Eckhart Tollen, the bias to negativity. And I think that's the, that's the grounds to do this type of work and to acknowledge the beauty and the joy in others. But then what we're talking about is like, can we turn that mirror around and actually acknowledging ourselves? Yeah, that's a great question. That's a great question.

I mean, I haven't got a ready answer for that one. Have you got a ready answer for that? I've been dancing with it. It's not comfortable. No. I, with some, I love doing experiments with my clients.

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And won't use any names and so it's, it's fine. we did a, we did an experiment where I asked them to write a list of, I've asked them to write a list to themselves of 50 things I love about you.

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And the immediate fear from that request was just like, will never be able to do that. Like there's no way. let's start with 10. Come back, come back to our next session with 50 sides. Quite a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But in actual fact, like it doesn't have to be, you know, amazingly huge things. It could be, you know, I love how you make your partner coffee in the morning.

I love what it, what it, can be the tiniest little things that we don't actually acknowledge in ourselves. And it was the most interesting experience to see that unfold over a period of a couple of weeks to get to 50 and be like, I'm actually. right. But the immediate thought was like, could never come up with 50. Interesting. That's that bias, isn't it?

Do you think was a figure, the figure 50 or did it felt so huge for people? Yeah, it's deliberately there just to be like, okay, that's a function of it. Okay. but we break it up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So why, why do you think that's the case? If, in indeed it is the case that people have these resistances to, mean, cause a narcissist doesn't have a problem, right? They, have a long list, maybe 150 attributes, but why is it that most of us that, that

this, we have this kind of resistance to that or difficult. If I was to take a guess, and it is a guess, cause I don't know. I'd say it would come down to some level of worthiness that's developed over time or lack of worthiness. and then if you pair on top, the, the critic jumping in and pointing out when things are not going well, when the.

Less than desirable behaviors are showing up. you mix that with a little bit of I'm not worthy unless I'm being validated for doing good things. I think there could be a flavor of that that runs most people I speak to in my coaching have, their version of a, of a worthiness scenario story in their head. It's, there's a real.

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common thread in that and to varying intensities and degrees and the rest of it, it's, it's pretty universal work in regards to really feeling and believing the story of I am enough.

You know? Yeah. I thought it was running through my mind when you say that is, is about the validation that people get from other people and whether the difficulty of saying I am enough, feels different to the validation you get through interaction with another being. I love that you brought this up. Yeah.

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We're going to have to get you back on the podcast, We have a lot to talk about you and I. I think it's a really good point in the difference between external validation and self validation. I think we are in some capacity culturally programmed to search for external validation. It's in our schooling systems. It's in our work systems. It's everywhere.

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And I also think that that I like to think of them as two ends of the spectrum. So the self validation is like, I did that well, I'm enough, whatever the language is. And then there's the external validation of like, did a really good job there. You're great at that from someone else.

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And I think there's a dance between the two, but I think in most people it's probably 90 % external and maybe five or 10 self or it's not existing in self. So it might be, you know, a hundred and zero.

I think in my experience, I was lucky enough to, work with someone to show me the importance of self validation. And we worked together and I got to experience, and this is part of that language around having my own back. I'm not outsourcing my worthiness to someone else. It's the, can I acknowledge the parts of me that are valuable and worthy?

and not be reliant on someone else to hopefully do that based on the actions that I make. Does that make sense? Yes, absolutely. absolutely. Yeah, look, I'm listed up very intently. And the reason I am is because it has such resonance for me. You know, I've just realized that, you know, these sorts of conversations, one of the wonders and magic of it is that they hit certain spots, they push buttons and

things light up, you suddenly get insights into your own life. And the insights I've just had about mine is that when I talk about connection, coming back to the issue about connection, when I leave a conversation, when I leave somebody after a fulfilling, wonderful, sparkling conversation, and I see they're lit up and I'm lit up, for me, it's the best feeling in the world. But it's also got another dimension, which is around

the validation I derive from that in terms of my own worthiness that I have the capacity to make another person feel good in my company. I've never really thought about that actually. This comes into, sorry to derail you there. This comes into Booba and I they're relating in regards to the collective. This is emerging between us. It's both of us rather than I'm bringing this and you're bringing this. This is the emergence of what's here.

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I think that's really an interesting space to be in and one that I'm learning that this podcast benefit from because we don't know where it's going to go. We don't know what's going to emerge. Yeah, that's right. That's right. On the opposite end of that token, the whole idea of I've always had this terrible resistance to affirmations. Yeah, same. I just have this vision of

people sitting in their bedrooms going through self-affirmations and trying to convince themselves through repetition that they're this or the other. And look, I'm not deriding it, and for some people it works and all the rest of it, but for me, I just couldn't buy it. And you've made a really critical point, though. The critical point in this is independent of one's engagement with other people, is it possible to have a narrative or a sense of being that is essentially underpinned by a

by positive stories about self, know, or positive, validatory accounts of self. And, know, it is interesting because one of the experiences I've had here in the wake of what psychologists would call dislocation or sociologists would call dislocation was when it...

I was in the pits thinking, nobody really likes or loves me. my God, what's going on in my life? how come this is not working out? Jesus, you know, you know, that stuff you get into. the center of it, I started this alternative dialogue. started saying, Richard, I said, remember you're actually an okay person. You're like, you're lovable. You're likable. You've got to track record of friendships. okay, this is happening for whatever reason this is happening. But inside I do use that very, I don't know what it is, a clumsy metaphor of a

a kind of candle that's lit within. When I was going through my first marriage, a very domestically violent relationship with my partner, I had this notion of the candle that could never be doused. And I said, was a provocative thing to say to a very easily provoked person to say, this is something you can never touch. And it was true. Like, you can beat, shout, scream, throw things. I knew that candle will remain burning. And so in the darkest of times, I returned to that.

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here, which has been, look, I'm okay. Actually at core, I'm a nice person and I'm a caring, loving person and I'm fiercely loyal in my friendships and they matter to me. And I think in that there's a knowing of thyself because you do know yourself. It's the bringing that to the surface and actually speaking to it, just reminding yourself. I think that's the definition of self validation.

Does that apply to you? that sense of, you know, that, that, okay, the clumsy metaphor of the candle within. Yeah. Well, it's funny you say that because there's a, there's a Ram Dass poem, but now it's a song that I love listening. It's called Sit Around the Fire. And the concept is that we, through our life, we have a fire and then it burns down to one ember. And then we have to protect that ember.

And through our presence and through our love, we, build that ember and then all we're going to do for the rest of eternities to sit around the fire. And, it's the same, we actually use that meditation in our workshop on Friday night. Cause I just think it's a really beautiful concept of like, life can sometimes squash our flame, but we can protect it and it can grow again. We don't have to put gas on it. just have to protect the flame and then we can sit around the fire.

So there's a little glow in that ember. Yeah, the embers just alive, know, enough to be like, okay, let's rebuild this fire. When you think about that, the power of that metaphor, I'll tell you, my mind's gone. I mean, it's a very dramatic place to go. I saw a film recently with Stephen Fry about when he returns back to Auschwitz. you may have seen it, but he returns back to the ruins of the old barracks that he was housed in.

and in terrible, terrible conditions, obviously. And I wonder about people who have that ember inside in most adverse of circumstances. I know that Victor Frankl, for example, survivor of Ashwitz, and he held onto hope. Hope and meaning, hope and meaning. So the circumstances around you can be terrible, but somehow inside there's something that sustains us. Protect that ember. Yeah, protect that ember. Yeah.

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So,

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I feel like we could do an eight hour podcast. Yeah, me too. Yeah. So, let's, let's make this part one. Yeah. Okay. I'm a full two. but before we go, I like to ask the question of what's exciting for you right now.

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the, that's a very interesting question. I'm not sure if exciting is the word, but it's, it's this experience. What it's done for me is to throw up a whole new range of new possibilities in life. this experience being moving up here or yeah, the move and everything that's gone with it, the dislocation.

the flirtation with depression around it. The rising anxiety around relationships and place and being. But in all that, there's a new learning and there's a new sense of what's possible in this. And I've even developed the terrible notion of a bucket list. And I sort of got one and I've spent quite a bit of time thinking about what does that actually mean?

What sense, how does that fit within my age, within my gender, this place I'm in currently? Why have a bucket list? Why do need that? I don't refer to it as a bucket list, but that's in effect what it would be. So I guess what excites me is the prospect of different ways of being actually. And actually, thing that most excites me of all,

is my connection, the possibilities of new connections with people. And I hang onto that, I hang onto that. I'm almost in a sense of desperation at times, but cherishing the people I love, investing more in that as best I can. And the great excitement of actually being a slightly better person than I am in those relationships. Yeah, that's really beautiful.

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Can I ask you the same question? Yeah. What excites you?

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Right now life's pretty bloody exciting. And then I think I mentioned this, whether it was the last podcast or the one before, I've, I've put myself in situations where there's, there's a lot of connections. so, no circle, my study, it's a big group of people and we do a lot of group work and connecting.

the work down in Melbourne and I'm excited about the regularity of exposure I'm having to a group and the connections that come from those groups. And knowing that I don't have to manufacture it. I don't have to build it or create it. I just have to be part of it. So I'm excited that I don't have to build something. I didn't know I do like building things, but.

I'm more excited about being surprised by the connection on the other side. Cause I'm noticing that more and more. It's like, I didn't expect that. And I'm really excited about that feeling of surprise and, just paying attention to being surprised, pleasantly surprised about, and sometimes not pleasantly surprised, but just being open to and excited about being surprised.

because I see that as the opposite of having an agenda and an outcome.

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So it sounds like the words come to us of being with you, that you are with this process, your parts of it integral with it and to it. rather than having to reconstruct something new all the time. Yeah. It's just present. Yeah. And I've come to the realization, I'm coming to the realization more and more that I actually don't have to be any different than I am now.

I don't need to be anything different physically. don't need to be smarter. I don't need to be, you know, more well read, which is what I used to think, but I don't, realizing that don't have to, can just show up as me. And, maybe this comes back to some of this, the self validation stuff of like, am worthy as I am. I don't need to be continually building and striving in order to feel that. So there's a little glimmer of that.

That's interesting. And I suspect by the same token, there's that awareness now of when that is happening, when there is a playing up, when there is an acting out. And then there's the dialogue, which is about why is this happening here? is this discomfort coming from? That's always intriguing, isn't it? We've all got our discomforts. Definitely. And I think the more we can...

sit with them rather than push them away. Absolutely. That's pretty exciting. Absolutely. And from that emerges, I think sitting with us a whole new...

topics to discuss, sitting with something is one of those powerful things you can do. Doing nothing. I'm always reminded just on a final note, I may, a friend of mine who was absolutely in dire straits. His marriage is folding, this was happening, that was happening, his foreclosing on his house and didn't have a job. And he went to see a shaman in Byron Bay and paid enormous amount of money. And he saw the shaman and he threw this veil of tears, you know, he turned to the shaman and he said,

Ep 11: Rick And Richard (01:14:50.808)

me, tell me what to do. And the Shaman just looked at him and said, breathe. Is that it? I just played you a shitload of money. You were telling me to breathe. I wasn't doing that. He goes, no, really breathe. And you know, that's one of the great lessons, think there's a lot in that. We'll unpack next time. That is a beautiful place to end. Thank you. Hill. Thanks for joining me. Thank you, Rick. I appreciate it.